- I'm almost accused of being too romantic for business. And I'm like, business is humans helping other humans, and it's always a human element. So more and more business leaders should know how to connect economic structures, business structures, with human emotions. - Hello everybody, and thanks for joining me for the latest episode of "Leadership 2050". I'm your host, Andrew White, from Oxford University's Saïd Business School. My guest today describes herself as a business activist, who is working hard to be a business leader the world needs today. Pinar Akiskalioglu is the founder of Punk Business School and her companies include the sustainable beauty anti-brand TAKK. In our conversation, I speak to Pinar about running a business that discourages overconsumption, her revolutionary approach to business education which puts emotions and values at its heart, and what leadership of the future needs to look like. I began by asking Pinar to tell us about her purpose-led and human-centered portfolio of businesses. - My companies are like in different industries. So I've founded two companies. One is in e-commerce space, the other one is in education, business education. And I'm also a partner in renewable energy and construction companies. Although sound a bit all over the place, I think they all have one thing in common. They're all serving the purpose of being part of a sustainable business in future. - Is there one business that really stands out as, I don't know, the flagship, as the one that is closest to your heart? You know, it's bringing to life the future. - Yes. I'd like to talk about the issues that I'm working on because in future, I believe we want group companies as industries. I believe we will group companies, organisation, around the pressing topics we are tackling today. - Yes. - So the topics that I'm most passionate about is overconsumption, non-human businesses leading the business today. So I'm trying to find solutions to them. The way I'm doing this is like, we created a e-commerce platform which promises customers not to sell them anything they don't need. - Wow. Okay. - Yeah. The company is called TAKK. - Yeah. - TAKK is like thank you in Scandinavian languages. So it sounds very simple, right? So we will just sell you what you need. But it's actually quite revolutionary in today's e-commerce site. So I didn't have any experience in e-commerce. My professional career was built on traditional marketing, but I told like you, I'll just find a e-commerce site that I can sell my products. But then what I realised is there's always something in the system, mechanism is pushing you, pushing customers, to buy something that they don't need. There's always this manipulation. So I'm like, okay, let's build our own space, which we will give power of deciding back to the customers. Because one thing is you believe, because there are a lot of choice for customers to choose from, we have tendency to believe that it's our choice what we're going to buy. But with the retailer, they know what you're going to buy better than you know. So I think it's just crazy and it's just like making people's decision-making process quite powerless. So we decided to build our own e-commerce site, which is free from all push for overconsumption. So that's like the biggest chunk of how I spend my time. But in this business, I also like to talk about workers' rights. I wanted to talk about how the workers in factories are paid, how they're treated, what's the company culture. And my team was like, "Pinar it's just very overwhelming when we are trying to sell shampoo and all". - Yes. Yep, yep. - I mean, we respect your thoughts, but just play with them somewhere else. That's how I started my second business called Park Business School. So I had business education, I learned a lot of things, but I think there was one thing missing in the whole business education. Two things actually. One is relation with your emotions. Understanding, as a human being, how your emotions are manipulating your decision making as a business leader. And in the classrooms, even in the top business schools in the world, what I saw is people are in the need of finding their value. They want to understand their unique contribution to the society. And I don't think business education today is delivering that. And the second one is, we just take some things as given. We take the capitalist economic model as given. There is even a module in the programme is just called Global Rules of the Game. I really hated it. What is the global rules of the game? If we are in this top business classroom, like, aren't we the one who need to shake the system and rewrite the rules of how the economy should be led? I don't wanna learn about the dynamics of the current rule book. I just want to challenge it. So it's kind of like I wanted to empower more business leader, not to be intimidated by the existing power structures and feel confident enough to speak up, try things, shake things. So that's how I founded my other company, Punk Business School. So basically what we are teaching people, basic philosophy. Who am I as a leader? What are my values? What is my unique contribution to society? Like, how can I be happy in a business environment? So is capitalism given? Can I just leave it my values in a corporate environment? So we are kind of exploring these difficult questions. But lately I became a mom, like 17 months ago, and that also like, really opened new perspective to life. To business, to leadership as well. I am now even more interested in opening cross-generational conversations. Like bringing more younger people in the business conversations, older people in the business conversations, and then make these people talk to each other. And then the other topic I'm exploring now is like, one thing that is overlooked in diversity discussions is classes, social classes, privileges. These topics are difficult to talk and people always shy away from talking about it. But looking at the top business networking events, there are very, very few people who are coming from disprivileged background. And this is just not the diversity we are looking for in a business environment. I also by myself, because I was lucky to have access to good education and never felt in need of financial security, I always shied away from having this conversation. I thought like, it's not my right to talk because I don't understand the dynamics of having a difficult life. But now I realise is like, not speaking is never a solution. Not having the conversation is not leading us anywhere. So I just want to be brave enough to have this conversation and I encourage more people to talk about cross-social classes, cross-generational conversation. So I just dream of a different business classroom with like a different type of diversity than only cultural diversity. - It's so, so interesting. I mean, when you started and you said, "I'm a business activist", I thought, I wonder what she means by that? I was gonna ask, "What do you mean by that?" I don't have to ask what you mean by that, because I think you've defined it in so many ways. I loved what you said about, you know, you've created a business that isn't constantly pushing product. You know, I think we've all experienced this. We sign up for something and before we know it, you know, they're trying to sell us more, we don't need it. But then also, you know, in essence the revolutionary approach to business education that we don't need to accept the givens. And that's the purpose of a younger generation, I think. You know, that they don't accept what they've inherited. But you've gotta find something in yourself, haven't you? As you're saying. That doesn't just come out of your mind, it comes out of your heart. And you know, then you start to say, "Well, okay, we're challenging the status quo in so many areas". Now I know what you mean by business activism. So tell me, how did you get here? When you look back over the course of your life, were there certain moments, things that happened to you when you were growing up, that kind of, you know, if you drew a line, you would say that was like an inflexion point or that was a big learning moment? Where did this happen? Where did this different way of viewing the world come from? - I was lucky to have social education in my childhood. So I always had my education in a quite diverse environment. And I always, like... Because even at young age people has tendency to group according to their social classes. I remember always hating it, you know. Always like on purpose trying to break that circles. So I think in that sense, I had it in myself at a younger age, but because I was in an environment that was so obvious... If I had a super like, I was getting education in a super fancy school or something, it might have been different. But because I had exposure of this, like people grouping according to social classes was so obvious, at an early age I start hating it. And business. I always loved business. Like young people, you know, mostly they like to heal people, they want to become a doctor, a nurse, a teacher. Although it doesn't sound very social, I always like trade. - Right. - At the younger age, I was selling things, like I was collecting coins, like I loved money, I loved selling things. So this was this my childhood dream to trade, to sell things, produce things. Then I had started my professional career in an NGO. Non-governmental organisation. It was a youth organisation called AIESEC. What we used to do is like, organising international internship programmes, kind of lets young people to discover their potential. So I spent seven years there. I worked in Turkey, I worked in Middle East, central Asia, but I also like worked in the Netherlands, always in a diverse group of teams. The moment I was like living ... I loved working for an impact. It's just, it feels good. There's a different energy in the teams. But what I realised that we are always like dependent on larger corporations financially to support us. So I wanted to understand that world. How does it work? Understand the dynamics of global economy, making money. So I joined a global giant and I thought marketing would be... In our times, like it was so competitive, always top talent was willing to work for fast-moving consumer growth marketing department. So I just wanted to be in the most competitive space that I can just like learn fast. That's how I started my corporate career. And you know how corporate works, they're always gives you something to keep going. You know? I enjoy the game. Because I love winning, I love holding power, like I have this inner motivation of it and I didn't fight against it during my corporate career, I just enjoyed it. I wasn't mean or anything, but like I always enjoyed being at the top of the game. But then I just realised I don't wanna play games anymore. It's just, it's irresponsible adult behaviour. I think I have more things in me, more things in me that I can contribute to our society, than just selling some products that people not necessarily need. And that's how I started my entrepreneurship career. Although I now call myself "business activist", and so passionate to talk about the business I built, but I seriously had a time where my self-confidence was shaken so deeply. - Right. - Moving from corporate entrepreneurship at the age of 40, it's just like... - Right. - It's not an easy decision. It's like corporate is... You know what's expected of you. Of course there are always surprises and nothing is given, but at least like you have a certain level of security and more importantly, you always kind of have the illusion of progression. You get a bigger role, you get a pay rise, you have something going on. And when you become entrepreneur, it's just like nothing, you know? There's no performance evaluation, there's no ranking, there's no top talent pool that you are happy to be in or something. It's just like- confirming that you are good and doing good. - It's just you, isn't it? - Yes. - It's just you. - Yes. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I think I was so harsh, it's like evaluating my performance. Like, where are the results? Where are the results? Like I got obsessed because I had this result obsession, you know? Okay I'm working hard and this should be the result. And it took some years for me to realise, result obsession in individuals and also at a global level, institutional level, is not helping us. Sometimes progression is as much as important the results themselves. So focus on progression rather than the result. I mean, coming to this mindset took a bit of time. I had to unlearn lot of things I learned in corporate. But yeah, I mean lately I've been feeling a bit more comfortable in entrepreneurship shoes. - Yeah. I mean, what's interesting for me is what you describe, the situation you went through coming out of a big corporate into your own organisation and since finding who am I? And you know, reevaluating a lot of things. It sounds very similar to what you're doing in the business school. The one bit of it, where it's about "I've gotta find my own values". I'm not gonna be a recipient of the rules of the game, I'm going to be a creator of the rules of the game. And so the two things are just at different stages of life. Or perhaps where it may be easier to do it when you are younger, because in a sense you've not got all of that structure, you've not got all of that status, and you're not in that world which, when you jump out... You know, when you're younger, you're perhaps a bit more naive, you don't rely on all those structures the companies provide for you. - And you are also not much invested in it- - Exactly. - when you are younger. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I mean, I worked very hard for my corporate career and it's just like leaving out of, I mean, getting out of it, it's just like, what happens to all my investments? - Yeah. - Time investments. But yeah, it helps in longer term. - Yeah. So now you're here where you are now. You've got the business TAKK, you've got the business school Punk, that you're working on. Talk to me a little bit more about TAKK. You know, what would be the experience, the type of products that are on there? - Currently what we do is we sell essential personal care products. We started with personal care because we felt cosmetics, beauty care industry, is one of the industries that are like really stimulating overconsumption a lot. So we found it as the best starting point. But in future, we want to cover all fast-moving consumer goods, except food, which we believe should be sourced locally. So we have collection of products, which are produced in a most ethical way we could think of, like with the people. Like our team is coming from large corporations, so knowing the industrial realities, we care about the most important things we believe, while producing the products. So instead of like having a fancy ingredient that is easy to market, we care about finding the right production plant, which is respectful to its workers. So like our biggest producer for example, it's owned by its own workers. So whatever revenue they make, profit they make, they share within each other. We just find it so fascinating that we found a way to work with them. So we're kind of like always exploring people who are doing good in our industry and bringing our global perspective and knowledge of the industry to make them work. We are also exploring opportunities in eliminating water waste, eliminating plastic packaging, also finding way to upcycle our packaging. We have like artists working in our organisation who are working find a way to upscale our product waste. Or we have musician, drama students, who helps us to find the right tone of voice when communicating our brand. So we used to call ourself like a punk company too. So kind of living diversity at a different level than we could ever think of. And so we always want to hold hands with like-minded people to produce, to bring your essential products to your house, in a most ethical, future-ready way possible. So that's what we work for. And we want to make people's choice matter. - So the products that you're selling, are you producing them or are you a platform for other suppliers as well? - No, we produce our own products. - Okay. So it's your own products, yeah. - Yes, it's our own products because we want to eliminate all unnecessary ingredients in the products because in fast-moving consumer goods, there's a huge pressure of like, keep bringing innovation to the market, which are not really innovation because you can't innovate every single year. But we see every single year, giant FMCG companies introducing us so-called innovations, which is actually much more harming than we could think of. You could just think it's just a lie, and smile about it. But also it's blocking true innovation to unleash. There are some real innovations going on in the world, but if you keep introducing some crazy small twist in the formulas and innovation, you're just not helping for true innovation to be unleashed. So that's a problem. So what we are working on, when we are producing our products, are we sit together with our formula developers and we have one brief to them. Just give us, create some, I mean, formula for us that is just only made of essential ingredients and nothing more. We don't want to communicate anything else about these products. And that's, everybody understands us, like who are in this business. When we talk to formula developers, we just make sense because we all know what we are talking about. Because for example, beauty industries always has been, I mean, influenced by fashion industry. One year we see a lot of flowers on the runways, and the next year we see a lot of new shampoo or like face cream coming out with a lot of flower ingredients. And it's not a coincidence and it's not type of the innovation we are looking for. So we don't want to be part of this hype and we want to work on true innovations instead. - It's really about where you apply energy, isn't it? - Yes. - You can apply energy and that hype- - Yes, exactly. - and human energy and human time, human resource, or you can apply energy somewhere else. So now you've got the recipe. - Yes. - You know, are there other sectors you're gonna go and apply this to? Because it strikes me that it's not just personal products, beauty products, that are affected by this. You talked about fashion, which is also affected by this. And there are other sectors where, I think your point is, the innovation is being focused in the wrong place. And if we refocus that human ability, that human creativity, to bring new things to market in different ways, we would get much better outcomes for people and for the planet. So what else is in your, in your kind of, in your landscape, in your plan? - Yeah, exactly. I'm running my business as human-centric. One thing that I know I don't want to do, I'm not interested in building unicorns. Not at all. I think it's just like, I have a problem with thinking big. I think we have enough people in the business thinking big. But what today the world needs, is really taking small actions. The power of small actions are super underestimated in our current business structure, and in an entrepreneurship, because the impact is hard to measure. You just measure the value, financial value you created. And don't take me wrong, I love money. I think it's a great enabler. I respect money. But there are companies that are unicorns by just making us believe that our eyebrows need super scientific care. I mean, if they are unicorns. I'm not interested in building unicorns at all. So my approach is this. I want to bring talented people, responsible people, together and see what we can do together, all together. So that's my approach to business. So we opened a position at TAKK and like we had a lot of amazing people applied, and some of them was just not fit for the job, but they were too good to let go. So I'm like, okay- - Right, okay. - Okay, let's discuss what we can do together. What is your passion? What you can bring on the table. What I can bring on the table. What are the issues, pressing issues, we would like to address? Let's do something about it. And it's not necessarily need to be big, it's just like small actions. And I think we need more and more people needing small, I mean bringing some small solutions to the big problems. Because- - Yeah. - the pressing issues, climate emergency, deepening social injustice, inequalities, these are complex issues. We need to embrace this complexity and like we should have an intelligence approach. Just thinking big is just, I think super, I mean, egoistic approach to the solution. We need more hands in finding the solution. So I just want to be example of a business person who's not only motivated by building giants company, but rather- - Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. - like rather just providing the platform infrastructure for talented people to strive. - Yeah. No, I can hear what you're saying. In a sense it's not about... There's an old model which is, well, we've got this product. We then do this product, we then do this product, and then we go to the market, we do an IPO, then we become a unicorn, and then we create a big reputation around it. And we don't need to put any names on that, we all know who we're talking about. - Yes. - What I hear you're saying is actually, "What I'm here to do is enable people". Well, what I hear you doing is putting into practise the business school, find your values, challenge the rules of the game, and then we'll help you kind of bring that to life. - Yes. Yes. - So there's something wonderfully organic about that. That's wonderfully evolutionary about that. - Hmm-mm. Yeah, so I also like, share a lot of my ideas with other people, you know. Like when I see talented people, like I get so excited. I'm like, I have like, I don't know, hundreds of ideas. If you ask me my business plan, it's just really too complex. I have a lot of them and I keep sharing with people. And my husband, who is a medical surgeon, has nothing to do with business, sometimes he hear me talking and he's like, "Why do you just share your ideas? You know, you can just do yourself". I'm like, I just want anybody, somebody to do this. You know, I'm more passionate about these things coming to life rather than me championing this change. Because change is never about individual. I mean, we have brand names, you know, like they're the symbol of a change or something. But it's always, always a collective action. It's just like, I'm happy to be part of the right side of the economic history rather than- - On the wrong side, yeah. - Yeah. Yes. - So there's something deeply about the future that you're embodying here, and I think listeners will really hear that. I think so many people, this is a kind of world that many of us want to be in. There's also... I'm gonna use a word, and I'm not gonna define it in any way, but I'm gonna kind of almost give it to you and say, "Does this mean anything to you?" So there's almost a spirituality in what you're doing. I don't know if that makes sense to you. There's a collapsing of dualities, there's compassion, there's something about love and about people's potential in here. I come at this from a very non-dogmatic... So I'm not... I want to almost throw the word over to you and then you define it in your way, in terms of how it makes sense to you in your journey. - Yes. I'm laughing because I'm almost accused of being too romantic for business. - Right. Right. - At business school sometimes I share my ideas and people are like, "Oh, Pinar you're going to be hurt so much". And I'm like... I mean, we humans, like business is about humans. I like using the keyword word human. I want be part of people who are building a human economy. I want to build human companies because business is, I mean, humans helping other humans, and it's always a human element. And as far as I know, like we have lot of emotions as human beings. So managing business has a lot to do with understanding people's emotions and being able to navigate amongst those emotions. So yes, I think more and more business leaders should know how to connect like economic structures, business structures, with humans' emotions. And I think that's the complex bit. Because in business we like using fancy words like... I mean like economics, macro or micro level, it's about mathematics. And it's, I'm sorry to say that, but it's not as complex as many business leader think. It's just simple mathematics. And I really do understand what they are talking about. You know, I hear them, but there's more to that. And that's not, I mean, the complexity is not around the mathematics. The complexity is about the humans and humans' emotions around it. And if you ignore it, you are missing a great piece. And if you are like trying to project the future, economics is about projecting the future, right? Like to understand where are the trends are going. And you won't going to see it by just looking at your screen, like your computer, right? And like having this econometric modelling. It's not that simple. Just go outside, look at people's face. I mean, people are protesting on the streets, right, at the moment. It's just shouting something that your econometric model won't tell you. And even like, look at the energy in the eyes of your children's teachers. What is that energy level telling you? These things has a lot to do with economics and these are interlinked and that's makes it complex. And we need to embrace this complexity. It's just sometimes because it's too complex, many business leader is just like shy away from it, because it's just too much. And then let's go to our economic model. Show me in your PowerPoint how you project future. If you don't use any like PowerPoint or anything in our conversation in our companies, just let's just talk, you know? It just makes it more sense and it just makes it super efficient and makes it more human. - Yeah. - And trust me, like there more people like me and we do understand how business dynamic works. It's just not we are out of this world, or too romantic, too naive to understand how the world runs. - Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what I hear you doing, I mean, there's a phrase that comes out of some spiritual traditions, which is the interconnectedness of all things. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, - It's the interconnectedness of all things, with a big dollop of compassion, and in a sense that's what I hear you bringing. Do those words make sense? Or do they resonate? - Yes, definitely. I like to call myself as a bridge builder. So I think leadership will transform to people who are building the bridges. Because traditional leadership is about like, just motivating people and make them follow you. It's just like too boring. I'm sorry, it's not gonna work in future. It's just we need business leaders who has ability to bring like-minded people together and create the right infrastructure to make them work together. I think that's the future of leadership. And it is exactly you say, it requires more human-centric attitude towards business. - Pinar, thank you so much. Not just thank you for your time today, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you for what you are embodying. Thank you for what you are bringing to the world. We're coming towards the end, but we're not at the end. So I've got seven questions for you that I've used with all my guests, which really, you know, just try to build some similarities between everyone. So the first one is, which leader from history most inspires you? - Okay. First of all, I don't believe in hero-ship. I believe in collective action. But I think Marcus Aurelius has a big influence in me forming my leadership understanding. - And when you think about today, which leader around the world that you witnessed, inspires you, kind of gives you some insights? - Young environment activists, I'll say. - Right. - People who are off the streets, demanding a better future for our planet. - Thank you. And the book that's made the most impact on you? - I will say "Conquest for Happiness" from Bertrand Russell and the "Good and Evil" from Friedrich Nietzsche. - Very good, thank you. And the characteristic, you've already answered this actually, the characteristic you look for in those that you promote, those that you bring into the organisation? - Respect and love for other humans, animals, nature. - And what most inspires you about the younger generation? - Ah, it's just like they're persistent in not accepting losing their time for nonsense business. - And what makes you most hopeful about the future? - Love and powerful conversation amongst people, like who have the hope and love for our planet and humans. - And then finally, it can't be easy doing what you're doing. Where do you go for inspiration and renewal? - I love British Library. I am very selective of who I spent my time with. And there are a lot of great people from all history and business in British Library. I love there. - My thanks to Pinar Akiskalioglu. My name is Andrew White, and you've been listening to "Leadership 2050", a podcast from Saïd Business School at the University of Oxford. If you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word, follow us, and maybe leave us a nice review. If you'd like to hear more from Saïd Business School, exploring leadership, and how the business world is reimagining the future, please visit OxfordAnswers.org. "Leadership 2050" is produced by Eve Streeter. Original music is by Cy Bagg. Our executive producer is David McGuire for Stabl Productions. Until the next time, thank you for listening.