Peter Flavel:
Most people that don't have contact with this echelon of people tend not to think that they care. And they do care. They care a lot. And we need them to care because the amount of capital they control is important.

Dr. Andrew White:
Hello, I'm Dr. Andrew White, and you're listening to Leadership 2050, a podcast about leadership for a better future. In this episode, I'm in conversation with Peter Flavel, the chief executive of the private bank, Coutts. Peter has more than 35 years of experience in international financial services. Before joining Coutts, he was the CEO of JP Morgan private wealth management in Asia-Pacific. He also spent nine years with Standard Chartered in Asia, founding their global private bank in 2006. Since joining Coutts in 2016, the iconic private bank has undergone a significant transformation, with Peter driving a new focus on modernization and responsible investments. Coutts has since become the first UK private bank to become a B Corp. In a world with rising social and economic inequality, how is Peter reimagining the role of a private bank? I started by asking Peter to tell us a bit about himself.

Peter Flavel:
I started off my professional career as a lawyer, as a barrister and solicitor. And I was working for the guy who wrote the text of the area of law in Australia that I was working on. So he was a very eminent lawyer. And I worked out pretty quickly that there were others in the office that loved the law and were up for reading the latest case because they liked it. Whereas, I was doing it because it was my job.

Peter Flavel:
And then, one day, we had my first big win on one of my cases. And Mr. Sharkey, who was the name of the lawyer, good name for a lawyer, said, "We'll go out for a few drinks to celebrate on Friday." And so, on Friday, we went out. And everyone's congratulating me and high-fiving and patting me on the back. And then Mr. Sharkey took me aside and put his arm around my shoulder and said, "Peter, look, this is very good. It's a very good win. It's a big win. Isn't this wonderful? It doesn't get any better than this." And I thought, "Mm, okay." So I came in on Monday and said, "John," not Mr. Sharkey, "I'm leaving."

Peter Flavel:
I'd done a joint degree, so I moved to Accenture in management consulting. And that was really interesting across lots of different industries. But after a while, I could realize that we would come into a company, decide what the problem was and give a report. But we never did anything. We never implemented. And so I wanted to get into implementation. And so we were working on a wealth management client, and the client said, "Why don't you come and work for me?" And I went, "There's a good idea." And so wealth management chose me, rather than the other way around. And that business became AXA.

Peter Flavel:
And the National Australia Bank came along, and they were the largest bank in Australia at the time, but they were the worst in wealth management. And they'd never brought anyone in from outside the bank. And so the people running wealth management were ex-bankers. And they weren't even in the top 10, even though they were top one in banking. And so we got that to number two in the country, in pretty short order, actually. So that was good fun. And then I met now Lord Davies, Mervyn Davies, who was Chief Executive of Stan Chart. And I was running all of retail at the age of 40, which was a big role for the young person. And Mervyn said to me, "Well, look, if you want to be an Australian banker, great, you'll do very well. But if you want to be on the international stage, then come to Singapore and I'll teach you how to be an international banker." And I took all of 30 seconds to say yes, not really realizing what I was getting myself into.

Peter Flavel:
And that was really the start of opening up my complete view of the world. And I had all these global roles and spent a lot of time traveling internationally across Asia, Africa, Middle East, Americas, which was terrific. And I loved it, actually. And then I met Alison Rose, who is Chief Executive of NatWest. And Coutts was... I'd watched Coutts for a long time. I think it's the best private bank brand in the world. Maybe I'm a bit biased on that front. But I watched it for a long time and it needed a shake up. And so for 330 years they'd had British person as CEO, tending to come from traditional sources. And we were looking for someone new, so someone with a different view. And so I came here nearly seven years ago now. And, actually, of all those roles, many of which I've loved as I've outlined, I think I've got the best job in the world now at the moment in private banking.

Dr. Andrew White:
That's a fantastic story. And I love the way it goes through these inflection points from law into consultancy, from consultancy into banking, from, let's say, regional banking into more global banking. And then the fact that you've got the best job in the world, from your point of view, which is a great place to be. I think it's a great ambition for younger people. How do you find that job that's best for you, that suits you? So could you give a little bit of an introduction to Coutts as a... Because some of our listeners are international and won't be familiar with the brand. As you say, it's a very well known brand in the UK, but it's 330 years old. It has a lot of history, a lot of pedigree. And I guess what you're also trying to do is ensure that that continues into today's world.

Peter Flavel:
So, Andrew, look, Coutts is the largest private bank in the UK, 330 years young, and has a wonderful history. And a family history, named after Thomas Coutts. And his granddaughter, Angela Burdett-Coutts inherited the bank. She was the first Baroness in her own right called Queen of the Poor. If you go to Westminster Abbey and you see the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, well, Angela's remains are to the left of that. She was given a state funeral. And Queen Victoria's son said, "After my mother, she was the most remarkable woman in the kingdom." And so our philanthropy started right back then, when she gave away most of her fortune for good causes. And so when I arrived here at Coutts, we'd been through a difficult period, which is why we needed someone not from the normal. And I was lucky enough to go down to Goodwood Estate with the then Earl of Richmond, now Duke of Richmond. And I'd never been to an estate before. And I'm driving in, and there's the dalmatians and the guy with the bowler hat. It's as English as you could possibly imagine.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah, exactly. That phrase came to me, as you could imagine, yeah.

Peter Flavel:
Yeah, quintessentially British. And Charles Richmond said, "Peter, let's go for a drive around the estate." Now, he's a petrolhead. So we got into the convertible Roller actually. And you get driven around, and there's the aerodrome where the planes from the Battle of Britain took off, and the golf course. And then the cricket ground, where the rules of cricket were actually first penned. The organic farm, the Rolls-Royce factory. It's an extraordinary business under his leadership. And then we went for lunch in the family house, also over 300 years old. And he was telling me about the history of the family, where the first Duke was the illegitimate son of Charles II and a French spy. And because he was such a good fellow, they made him a Duke. And then I'm having lunch with him, the crockery with the family emblem and the cutlery.

Peter Flavel:
And then outside, I looked outside the window, and they were building this art installation. Because the biggest event that they have there is called the Festival of Speed. And people that don't know that should have a look at Goodwood Estate. It's a wonderful event of motor racing. And they have this art installation, where they put vintage cars on the end of it. And it just occurred to me that this is what Coutts needed to be. It needed to be the best of British. But it needed to be modern, relevant, and contemporary at the same time. And so the first thing I'd say to you about our journey here at Coutts is how we're modernizing the bank. That we recognize our history and we nurture our history. But we don't live in our history, and we don't expect success because of our history. And we're modern, relevant, and contemporary today.

Peter Flavel:
And that led me to, early on, going to an event with MI5, the Director General. And he was talking about the need for diversity because it's needed, clearly. But he also said that we need it because the sources of threat to the country are coming from such different areas. That if he only employs white public school boys, as is probably the case over a long period of time, that's not going to keep the country safe. And the analogy to me for that was like, "Oh, hang on. Wealth has been created in lots of different ways. And so we need to think about the mixture of our bankers as well as because diversity is important. But, actually, because if we're going to meet the needs of new clients, that's what we need to do."

Peter Flavel:
So if you look on our website today, coutts.com, and you see the imagery that we have there today, it's very diverse. When I arrived six or seven years ago, frankly, it was white middle-aged women, walking around Sloane Square with nice handbags. And I've come up for a little bit of criticism saying that the imagery you're using is not the client base that you have today. And to an extent that is true, even though we're getting a lot more diverse and younger clients coming in. But I said, "But it's going to be the bank that we are in the future. And so I think it's important that you show that leadership of where you want the bank to head." So that's the modernization journey.

Peter Flavel:
The second journey is responsible investments, and we invest money on behalf of our clients. It's core to what we do. And six years ago, we asked ourselves, "What should be our approach to environmental, social and governance, ESG investing? And should we have a set of new green funds to run alongside our existing funds?" And we said to ourselves, "No, if we believe in this, then we should have ESG filters on everything that we do." So the only way that you can invest with us is with ESG filters. Now, that means that we exclude some industries. And then we work with partners to ensure that we are investing in businesses that are polluters today, but have a credible path to net zero. So one of those would be BP, for instance, where the answer to the climate challenge, the climate emergency, is going be that the bigger businesses that are polluters need to get to net zero. And so we're certainly involved in providing capital to those people that want to improve. So that'd be the two things, modernization and responsible investing.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah, it's really interesting. And can I play something else, in that, you've been in banking a long time. You've lived through various crises. I think probably the biggest one we all saw was 2008. And I think, in many ways, are we still living with that? For some people, wages have flatlined or even reduced in real terms. What we saw through COVID was certain people got a lot richer and other people didn't. We're now living with a cost of living crisis due to inflation. What's the role of a private bank in this world? You can diversify across the client base, but it's still high net worth individuals. Does this touch you? Does this mean things? Does it change the way you operate?

Peter Flavel:
Well, it does. Firstly, 2008 is probably the biggest one. Although I go back to '87, which was my very first one. I think the very first one you have impacts you the most. So I have been through four or five of these ones. And every time, we say it's different, and that is true. And this one is different. And what we've got used to is low interest rates for a long period of time. And many people who are earning money now and have no experience of high interest rates. My first mortgage, as a younger man, was 17%. And people look at you in startled eyes when you say that. And let's hope dearly that we don't get to that, and 5% is the top here. What I would say to you, Andrew, is that with wealth comes responsibility. So what we say we want to deliver is brilliant banking, flexible lending, and responsible investments.

Peter Flavel:
And the next part is making sure that wealth has its intended consequences. Now, what are those intended consequences? So we spend a lot of time with our wealthy clients asking them what wealth means to them. And to bring their family in, and their sons and daughters, and even grandchildren in instances. And there are games that we play, that eke out in a safe environment what everyone's attitude to the family wealth is. And to what extent is philanthropy and doing good things with that money going to be a part of the family. And what we say to the matriarch and the patriarch, the parents or the grandparents, is it's better to pass on the wealth that you are going to pass on to your family sooner rather than later. On the simple observation that it's better to be alive to see what they're doing with the money than not.

Peter Flavel:
Now, I know that's a bit harsh and pointed in a way, but it is the reality. And we're seeing that happen more and more, where parents are now wanting to work with children and grandchildren, rather than it being mum and dad's idea or grandpa and grandma's idea. It's the family's idea of what needs to happen to this wealth. And as you'd expect, Andrew, the next generation children and grandchildren have a very different expectation of the role of wealth in today's society. So it is absolutely changing. And most people that don't have contact with this, let's say, echelon of people tend not to think that they care. And they do care. They care a lot. And we need them to care because the amount of capital that they control is important.

Peter Flavel:
And so when I think about the big issues of today, and climate is one of those, they are collective issues. Government is not going to solve these issues in and of itself. Indeed, I think government will only be a catalyst, a necessary catalyst. It's going to be government working together with institutions, working together with business, working together with individuals as well, large families. But us as consumers that are collectively going to need to address things like the climate emergency.

Dr. Andrew White:
Just listening to you, I think what strikes me is that you're trying to lead a bank as a force for good. This isn't just about looking after people's wealth. My grandfather was a banker in the '40s and '50s, and I think that was a certain form of banking. It was top hats and it was everything the City of London was about. And what you're talking about is a bank as a force for good, in terms of the way people invest their money. I thought was really interesting the way you talked about ESG filters across everything we do, not just for certain funds. How do we diversify our client base? Then, how do we work with our clients to help them use the capital, not just for generating financial returns but, let's say, for generating social returns?

Dr. Andrew White:
So were you like this, when you talked about being a lawyer and you went to Accenture and then you went into wealth management? Or did things happen to you? Because you strike me as somebody who reflects a lot. You observe the world a lot. Were there critical things, in a sense, that opened your eyes to the fact that financial services needed to pivot, needed to be something different in our society?

Peter Flavel:
That's a really good question, Andrew. I don't like the idea that I'm a recent convert. And I don't feel that I am a recent convert. But we had a wonderful event here at the bank with David Attenborough and Mark Carney pre-COVID. And we had nearly 400 people in the bank, what we call Garden Court. And if we're all as good as that in our nineties as David Attenborough, you'd take that. He's just amazing.

Dr. Andrew White:
Exactly, exactly.

Peter Flavel:
And he held the room. He held the room for 90 minutes. You couldn't hear a pin drop. And what he said to me at the end, as he heard about our plans on ESG and B Corp... I'm going to come to B Corp in a sec. He said, "Peter, look, you need to get yourself organized, which you're doing. But, Peter, the power that you have is the people in this room." Now, that's a fairly obvious statement when you think about it. But he said that to me and, well, that was a blinding flash of the obvious.

Dr. Andrew White:
And the people in the room, sorry, they were your clients, were they?

Peter Flavel:
Yeah, sorry. They're all our clients. Yeah, indeed. Influential successful families, some of them for many generations. But also new entrepreneurs. People think, when they think of Coutts, if they know Coutts, they think of landed wealth and estates and the history. And we are all of that. But, actually, the core of what we do today is we bank 20,000 successful influential entrepreneurs. That's the core of what we do today, which is why we need to be this modern, relevant, contemporary. So when we thought about ESG and our journey on ESG, we said, "Well, how are we going to hold ourselves to account?"

Peter Flavel:
And a couple of our clients had become B Corps. In particular, Paul Lindley, he was in at Ella's Kitchen. And he encouraged to have a look at B Corp. Now, B Corp is, if you change yourself to be a B Corp, you change your articles of association. So that you are required to take all stakeholders into account in your decision making. So there's a change in your articles. And then you go through an assessment process, 200 questions across five areas. And you need to get 80 marks. Now, to date, B Corps have tended to be businesses that are, by their nature, environmentally sound: a recycling company, a solar panels company. So being a financial institution, fundamentally, you don't start from being green by being a bank. And so it took us two years to get there. And we were very proud to be the first UK private bank to become a B Corp. And you have to commit to a period of improvement because every three years you need to requalify. And each three years, it gets harder to requalify. And we're up for that.

Peter Flavel:
So we got into that, and then went, "Well, hang on, let's think about this after the David Attenborough event. Why is it just about us? Actually, we need to be encouraging as many of our clients to come on the journey with us." And we've had 60 so far. And then you think, "Well, hang on. It's not just about our clients. What about our suppliers?" So if you want to supply us with services, you need to think about that as well. And then you go, "Well, hang on. Actually, this is not a competitive thing. This is a collective thing." And so we've started a group of 10 financial services companies to also look at the B Corp journey. Because, actually, we want as many banks and financial institutions to become B Corps as we possibly can, because that's the collective thing.

Peter Flavel:
So your question is, yeah, we do want to do well by doing good. And what gives me confidence about the future, as a business person, is I think the penny has dropped for many business leaders. That they are a big part of the solution to the problems that we have in society and globally. And I don't think I'm alone in that. I think COP26 in Glasgow was a moment for many business leaders where they're going, "Oh, okay, I get it. We need to be in the room here."

Dr. Andrew White:
So I'm interested in how this manifests when you recruit and promote people. So when you bring people into your executive team, my guess is, and tell me if I'm putting words in your mouth, their ability to look after customers, generate returns. These are an order qualifier, but they're not a winner. Is there something else you're looking for from them? For somebody to be an uber exec in your team, what skills are you looking for in order to... Because they're the ones implementing this. They're the ones who are going to be driving the change and the transformation that comes from this vision that you're holding.

Peter Flavel:
So I look for authenticity so that people believe what they're saying. The Coutts family motto was, "To be, rather than to seem." So you do what you say you're going to do. And then, beyond that, I look for humility with the right degree of self-confidence. And that's a tricky balance at times. And to your point though, Andrew, when we had our last town hall here a couple of months ago, and I looked around. And we have refreshments after the town hall. And I was proud to look around the room, at least a couple of hundred people, and it was so different to when I first started.

Peter Flavel:
Now, we haven't won. We've got a lot of improvement still to do. And what happened early on is, we have a telephony service 24/7, 7 days a week, 365 days. It's called Coutts 24. And clients love it. And so I went down to sit alongside one of the operators. And they're talking to the client and say, "Hello, Mr. Smith. And how's your daughter?" Et cetera. And it's byplay because they're actually clicking around the system. And then, occasionally, we'd find someone in Coutts 24 and go, "Well, they're pretty good. We should promote them into another role in the bank." And then when I walk around the other floors in the bank, and everyone's got a question about the system, they go to the person from Coutts 24. Because the person from Coutts 24 knows the system inside out. And then I look at Coutts 24 and I go, "Oh, actually, everyone in this room, it's a much more diverse group of people than I've got on the other floors. So why aren't we hiring through Coutts 24, and spend two years in Coutts 24, and then train people to become bankers after that?"

Peter Flavel:
So we've pivoted a lot of our recruitment into saying, "Listen, you're not coming into Coutts 24 to be a telephony agent for two years. You're coming in to learn the system, the products, talking to customers and clients. And then we'll give you training in those two years to then take another role in the bank." And I believe we will solve... Well, a big way of which we're going to solve the diversity challenge that we have is through that grassroots greeting.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah, that's the phrase that came to my mind as you were talking. You're almost looking for where are the green shoots in the system, and can we connect up more with those? So I want to take you on in terms of really what's on your desk today. And, let's say, we were doing this podcast in three years, in five years time. And we were looking back, what do you think the bank would've done? How will things have changed? What will have accelerated? In a sense, what are you working on now that you really hope comes to fruition in one year, in two years, in three years, in five years? Again, given the vision that you're holding.

Peter Flavel:
Well, you're going to give a standard answer that I think many execs would give. And it's digital and data. And so we need to continue to digitize our processes. We've got way too many handoffs and that leads to errors at times. Or service levels that we would like to improve. And then the whole data piece is going crazy good. That's crazy good.

Peter Flavel:
What I would say to you though, Andrew, is I have an analogy in my head of ice and water. And the organization structures have been, to my way, very structured and like an ice cube. And on the other hand, you've got water, which is very fluid. And so I do think that organizations need to become more fluid. But that's not becoming completely water, to extend the analogy. It's more like a glass of water with ice blocks in it. And it is fluid, it can move around. But you have got parts of the organization that need to be solid and structured. And you've got other parts of the organization that need to be fluid and move around. And how do we get that? And, of course, the fluidity of these scrums and scrum of scrums that most people are now doing to implement change, which is really about parallel processes rather than consecutive processes. And I think that's certainly the way that we'll develop. And I think all organizations that need to succeed, need to develop in that way.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah, I think it's a great picture you're painting of ice and water. I often think that the world that we saw in the 20th century, when it comes to an organization, is almost a machine. And it came, largely, out of car manufacturing. And then we saw those processes going to everything from banking to healthcare. And it was about efficiency. It was about predictability. And it was about a certain degree of operational certainty. And, for me, that's ice. Whether you call it a machine or whether you call it ice, it was fixed. And I think you're right. We're going into a different era. And we're having to think about what the organizational form is. And I think your analogy of ice in water, so there's a fluidity but there's also some structure in there as well, which is needed. I often think it's going to a... It's a natural organism. So I think there's a really interesting shift that you're putting your finger on here.

Peter Flavel:
Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And in terms of leadership, that then means that you're not just speaking to your direct reports. You're speaking to many people in different parts of the organization with different skill sets.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah. And really having to figure out how things change as a result of that.

Peter Flavel:
Yep. And implementing change. That line that change has never been this fast, it'll never be this slow again. That is the reality of organizations today.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah. And I think it's requiring a different form of leadership, to go back to that point. Because many of the leaders that have come up through organizations have grown up in the world of ice. And they're having to develop different skills to operate in this new world. And I think that's going to be one of the biggest challenges we've got is, how do we all make this transition to be, I think, comfortable with disruptive change and in the flow of disruptive change? Because when you play out the things that you are talking about, whether it's climate or diversity or technology, this is going to have to move at that kind of pace and even greater pace.

Peter Flavel:
I quite agree.

Dr. Andrew White:
So from an industry point of view, do you think financial services... All these pressures, climate change, digitization, diversity, what I put it almost in the technology climate and people. Do you think the industry structure's going to change? Do you think we're going to start to see more challenger banks come in, more startups, more different types of products? I suppose, is there disruption that we see in some other industries? We're seeing a bit of it in financial services. But from what I can see as a consumer, they're in almost around the edge of the ecosystem. So I still have my HSBC account, but then I also have my multicurrency card with a startup, if that makes sense.

Peter Flavel:
So whenever I go... Not whenever, but oftentimes, when I go to a railway station like Liverpool Street or St. Pancras, and you look at these stations that were wonderful edifices of Victorian times and the beautiful architecture. And I look it and go, "Is that what we're going to think about banks like that in 20 or 30 years time?" So I worry about that. But I don't think, Andrew, that the structure of financial services is such that the structures are going to have a very big influence in and of themselves.

Peter Flavel:
So we had this debate the other day. Actually, I'm a member of the Sustainable Markets Initiative, which is co-led by our new King Charles. And we were down at Buckingham Palace where he puts together industry round tables. And there's financial services, and manufacturing, and airlines, and whatever, oil. But this time around, he mixed everyone up. And so we were having debates around climate change. And I made the point, as I did earlier, that this is a collective issue. And a fellow who makes hydrogen cars, fascinating, said, "Peter, look, I agree with you. But I also have a different view in that you do need the mavericks as well as collectibility." And we talked about Elon Musk. And there are lots of things about Elon Musk. But if we just dive in and say, "Look, Elon Musk has run out in front of everyone else. And would the Toyotas and Fords of this world be going as fast as they now are if Elon Musk didn't exist?" That's the concept.

Peter Flavel:
And so that's what I think in financial services, is that the smaller ones that can move quicker because they're not the big bank, that by definition moves a bit slower. Although, we like to think of Coutts that we move pretty quickly. But I do think the startups have that role to play to be the catalyst to cause banks to move more quickly. But the reality is, and this sounds self-serving, so I realize that, there's a very big difference, Andrew, between the transfer of money and the store of money. In the transfer of money, you don't really have to trust the person transferring the money very much. Because you know, a moment after you've sent it, whether it's got there. But are you going to put your life savings with a FinTech that has only been around a couple of years? And we're not seeing that.

Peter Flavel:
Now, I'm not saying that we won't see that in the future. But as a young man, even before internet 1.0, right back when telephone banking first started, and we were doing banking by text for the first time... For many people on the call, they won't remember that, weren't alive when that happened. And I thought, "Oh my God, this is the end of branch banking." And it hasn't been. And internet 1.0, a lot of the FinTechs that we now have are lookalikes of what happened in 1.0. And they didn't last much beyond 1.0 as well. So I'm not sanguine about it in any sense. Please let me not get that thought across. But I do think that the incumbents and the stability of the financial system will rest with larger institutions longer term.

Dr. Andrew White:
I look at myself, and I agree with you. I bank with HSBC, and then I have my Revolut card for when I travel. And I transfer a bit of money to the Revolut card because I pay a lot less on the transaction fees if I'm spending in Dubai, or the US, or in France. I suppose by the tiny little bit of hesitation-

Peter Flavel:
I guess so, Andrew, if I can interrupt. And this is not a advertisement for HSBC. And they'll laugh if they hear this. If you go on their website, they've just launched a product which is a multicurrency product. And you should have a look at that.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah, I should.

Peter Flavel:
So I'm just doing HSBC a favor.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah, I should do. But you're right, in that instance, it's the startups that get some of these ideas. And I thought your thought about Elon Musk is right. Would Toyota, would Daimler, would any of these big companies be going as aggressively into electric cars, if it wasn't for Elon Musk, and what he showed was possible, and the valuation that's been put on Tesla by the market?

Peter Flavel:
Well, I don't necessarily agree with that valuation, but I think that's probably a separate point. But I do agree that I think it's been the catalyst to cause the rest of the industry to move much faster than they would've otherwise done.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah. I guess my observation is, when I look at my daughters and how they bank, it's different. They're much more comfortable with some of these newer brands than my generation is. And so I suppose it's rolling forward 20, 30 years. Do they mature and become a bit like me? Or are those brands sticky? And do those brands stay with them?

Peter Flavel:
Yep, that is the question. That is the question. And it will be answered by a future generation of manager than me. We look at all the market research. And for customers now that are internet native, they do have a different attitude towards digital services. So I was talking to a friend the other day. And his son needed to go to the dentist. And the dentist didn't have an app. And his son refused to call the dentist rooms to get an appointment. Because he said, "If he hasn't got an app for an appointment, why am I going to go and see the dentist?" So that's interesting.

Peter Flavel:
But the way I think about this is that we are going to get, and we are already getting, very used to using artificial intelligence to tell us whether we've got particular form of cancer. That's a better radiologist than a radiologist. And so we're going to get used to the computer saying, "You've got cancer X." Now, when you've got cancer X, are you going to say, "Hey, Siri, can you tell me what I should be doing now about my cancer?" Or are you going to want to speak to a doctor who will outline the various options, in terms of how your life is going to pan out? So I do think there's a human element that I struggle to see that will go away.

Peter Flavel:
Because we ask ourselves that question in private banking. And I worry that I'm old-fashioned. But I say, "Look, when a client wants to talk to me about their family, and about what wealth means to them, and whether their son or daughter is going to look after the wealth well, I struggle to see how that can be a digital process." That, to me, is a human process. Now, who delivers that human process? Is that an old bank like us or a new FinTech? That's a good question.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah. So, Peter, thank you. Thank you for all the interesting conversation. I'm going to end this podcast like I've ended all the others, with seven quickfire leadership questions. So can we kick off with, which leader from history inspires you most?

Peter Flavel:
Well, I think most people will put political leaders, but in a business sense, Steve Jobs, Apple, the Apple story, I just love. If I'm looking for inspiration, I just love watching that. The crazy ones, the Think Different ad, that first ad that he did. I think he's been a great business leader.

Dr. Andrew White:
Fantastic. And then which leader today inspires you most?

Peter Flavel:
Well, we didn't get to talk about BP much, but Bernard Looney, I think he is a great leader today. The card that he has to solve for, in turning BP into a net zero company over the long term, is a really difficult gig. And I admire him for what he's doing there.

Dr. Andrew White:
And which book has had the most impact on you as a person and as a leader?

Peter Flavel:
I was lucky enough to get sent to the advanced management program at Harvard a while back. And John Kotter, the wonderful professor there, and his book Leading Change. It's 10 years old. I actually had a look at it on the weekend again. Eight simple steps. If you haven't read it, there's no rocket science there, but it's a really good book.

Dr. Andrew White:
Yeah, I know it well. And then what characteristic do you look for most in those that you promote?

Peter Flavel:
Well, going back to what I said earlier, authenticity. People doing what they really believe they're doing. They're not just saying what they think is the right thing to say. And then this humility with a degree of self-confidence.

Dr. Andrew White:
Thank you. And then the younger generation, when you mix with the younger generation in the bank, what inspires you about them?

Peter Flavel:
They care for the environment. Yeah, simple as that. And it's at a completely different level to the way... I grew up, my grandparents were farmers, so I spent a lot of time on the farm in my holidays. And I would say that my grandfather was an environmentalist in his own way back then, but it's at a completely different level to what it is today.

Dr. Andrew White:
And what makes you hopeful about the future?

Peter Flavel:
I touched on it earlier. I think that business is getting its head around its role. That it's not just about the shareholders. And it's not just about profits. It's doing well by doing good. And so we've got to look at all stakeholders, and we have to take them into account. And I think that the good business leaders are already on that path.

Dr. Andrew White:
And, finally, where do you go for inspiration and renewal?

Peter Flavel:
Well, you've got the accent, Aussie. We have a house down in a place called Sunshine Beach. What a great name for a beach. And we have a house right on the beach. And so it's the sound of waves, and the fresh air, and walking along the beach.

Dr. Andrew White:
My thanks to Peter Flavel. My name is Andrew White, and you've been listening to Leadership 2050, a podcast from Said Business School at the University of Oxford. If you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word, follow us, and maybe give us a nice review. If you'd like to hear more from Said Business School, exploring leadership, and how the business world is re-imagining the future, please visit oxfordanswers.org. Leadership 2050 is produced by Eve Streeter. Original music is by Si Begg. Our executive producer is David McGuire for Stable Productions. In the next episode, I'll be talking to Amit Kapur from Tata Consultancy Services. Until the next time, thanks for listening.