- I like to make connections, make a difference to people's life without them even asking. And I think leaders must do things without people asking them to. And I think so much more we need to have leaders who are respected.

- Hello, everybody, my name is Andrew White and you are listening to, "Leadership 2050." A podcast about leadership that's fit for the 21st century. Leadership is undergoing a profound revolution. Those who show empathy and lead on social issues will thrive in the years ahead. And in this series you'll meet global leaders who are showing the way. In this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by someone who is not just an inspiration to me personally and someone I have worked with, but someone I consider to be a good friend, Pinky Lilani. Pinky is a champion of women, a food guru, and an inspirational entrepreneur. She started her professional life as a self-taught chef and author. Today she's at the helm of a global network of women leaders. Recognising and developing human potential is her superpower. She is the founder and chair of a number of awards, recognising influential women, including the Annual Women of the Future Awards and the Asian Women of Achievement Awards. And in 2015, she was awarded a CBE for services to women in business. In our conversation, she shares her insights into leadership, including why kindness is critical to business success, and how to meaningfully improve diversity in an organisation. I began by asking Pinky to tell us about her work.

- So, really it's about the empowerment of women and leadership, and woven into that is a bit of cookery too. So, I actually set up the Asian Women of Achievements Awards 23 years ago to recognise role models and give a platform to Asian women and break the stereotypes. And they didn't sit at home and just fry onion bhajias. And I actually set up that programme from around my breakfast table and used to walk the streets of London stopping people and saying, you're Asian, will you enter my award? So, it had very humble big evenings and it's really grown. And then, you know, in 2006, I set up the Women of the Future Awards, which is recognised inspirational women under 35. And then we went on to set up the network. We set up a school programme called the Ambassadors Programme. We set up what we like to think as a mini, mini British version of Davos School, it called the Women of the Future Summit, which we started in partnership with people like the Foreign Office and the Great Campaign. Then we set up kindness in leadership. As Andrew, you know, kindness lies at the heart of everything we do, and so we set up kindness and leadership, 50 Leading Lights. But then we did something, we took a leap into the unknown. We actually took the programmes to Asia. So we have the Women in Future Southeast Asia, we have the Asia Pacific Summit, we have the Asia Pacific Kindness List. And most excitingly, we've launched our first truly global programme, which is 50 rising stars in ESG for women under 35. So that really summarises what I do, but I also do a lot of work like giving talks on leadership, but always with my wok. Which may seem a bit of anomaly to people, but I can take my wok and plug it in and make spicy Bombay potatoes at the end of talking about leadership.

- Wonderful. And I think, Pinky, what I love about what you've done is you have had so much impact in terms of, as you say, putting the spotlight on these amazing women leaders, these amazing women leaders in the Asian community. Not just in the UK, but increasingly around the world. And you've done it with so little resource. It's a real amazing example of what somebody can do when they have vision, when they have a belief, when they really want to make an impact on something. So can I take you back to before those days when you were walking around the streets of London, as you described yourself doing, and what were the events in your life that you feel really formed you, that really inspired you, that were learning points? It might not necessarily have been easy. What shaped your values, your beliefs, that really created the platform for the work you're involved in today?

- I think values lie at the heart of everything I do. I often talk about, you know, somebody's once mentioned the eulogy virtues we have. And that's always been important to me. The values of integrity, humility, compassion, empathy. And I think it actually goes back to my childhood where I lived in a home where my grandfather was a very well known person in the community, and even my parent lived by those values, so I think that's where I really began. But then having come to England and just been a yummy mummy for many, many years, standing outside the school gates to collect my children, having as many conversations as I could, I started doing a lot of voluntary work. And it was actually in the voluntary sector that I was inspired that how we could make a difference. So, I was actually on the council of the Aga Khan. And I was in charge, I had the portfolio for outreach, so that was where I really began to meet interesting people. And I saw how connections and relationships actually help you to build programmes and you can have impact. So, it really began with my voluntary work and the work I did in the community that set me off. And also I must, but at this stage was I used to be just hanging around the house looking for different things to do outside, and somebody one day knocked on my door and it was election time and he was from the conservative party. And he stood there and he said, I'd like you to vote for the conservative. I had no idea. And because he was a nice guy, I started talking to him and said I would vote, and he said, will you help us to kind of with our committee locally? So actually became part of this committee, which was full of older women. I was only like 32 then. And I actually became a, you know, learned a lot of things being part of the local conservative committee. And that was a real, you know, really drove my belief in leadership and how you can make a difference.

- So can I ask you for a moment just to think about some of the people that you met when they were, when perhaps when they entered your award programme and they received an award. What do you see happen when you get that recognition? What do you see happen when in a sense a world like yours honours them, sees them for who they are and who they might be? I'm really interested in the transformation that takes place in some of those individuals.

- Andrew, there's huge transformation. And we see it with every award. I think for a lot of people it kind of strengthens their self-belief. They get a platform, they get to meet other people, and I think their networks grow. And we all know how important networks and communities are. It gives them, you know, also a lot of them then want to go on and do more things. So, a wonderful story is how when, in fact, just last week for instance, no, two weeks ago when we had the Asian Women of Achievements Award judging and there was this amazing scientist from Imperial. And she's developing these micro sponges that soak up pollutants and oil from water. And her work was inspirational. I didn't understand it properly but I thought to myself, I know Liv Garfield, who actually is as you know, the youngest CEO of a FTSE 100 company, she's head of Severn. And the same day I wrote to Liv saying, there's this woman from the Asian Women, she's doing research into something that could be of interest to you. And within the day, Liv's team had got in touch with her and they're working with her. And she rang me up last week and said, It's changed everything for me. Suddenly, the world is open. And that's what I see for them. They see the difference they can make just by the impact of the people they meet and the vastness of what we do. So, we have so many stories, Andrew. It's life changing. And I know that sounds very grand, but so many of them have actually said it's changed their total, you know, life journey.

- And this is so interesting, Pinky, because this is really a human potential movement that you've created. You bring the resources of the conferences, the resources of the awards or the resources of the networks, and it really allows those who perhaps don't have access to some of those things to get to be acknowledged for the hard work they've put into their career so far. And then just gives them almost rocket fuel to get to that next stage. And that helps everybody because as you're describing in that situation that young woman's research then starts to go into a much bigger platform of Severn, the water company, which then can have huge impact, positive impact on the world.

- Absolutely, and I think, it's also what I love about some of these people, Andrew, they have no idea how amazing they are. I see a lot of them have lack, in a way, they're obviously very passionate, they're driven. But actually just opening the door, they haven't had life experiences. And what you and myself have so much exposure to people. When you are like 23 and starting out, your networks are fairly restricted. And I think really being exposed to not only other participants, but our judges for instance, all kinds of people, pick them up, hear their stories. Very often we'll be asked because of the work we do, we've been asked to bring, sometimes take 20 people maybe to Downing Street to have meetings, so that they can actually share what they do. And it's a win-win. But actually, I remember taking every year for about four years, we used to take 30 people from our Asian Women of Achievement Award to the Palace for tea because there, the master of the household loved the women he met and he thought be great for them to have a visitor to the Palace. And I remember this young girl from Huddersfield who came and she would go to the Palace for the first time in her hijab from a Muslim family. And she said her entire family were waiting for her at home because they'd never ever thought she would ever go to something like Buckingham Palace. And she said it changed her whole belief in herself. So small things, but huge impact.

- It's really amazing just listening to you. And it's amazing, the, as I say, the resources that you've marshalled, which don't need a big organisation, they don't need billions of dollars or pounds or euros of capital. But the impact is incredible. Can I ask you, given the place you are at and you meet a lot of people, you're involved in a lot of networks across government, internationally increasingly as well. When you look at the challenge facing the world, what do you see the biggest things are that leaders have to address? What's on the near term horizon? What do you see the big opportunities? What are the risks? What does the future of leadership look like from your point of view?

- I think, you know, Andrew, I've thought of this quite a bit because quite by chance I became a leader. I didn't see myself as leader. And I have to confess, you talk about the impact I've had, people talk about my vision. I didn't start with any strategy, I had no vision. I get an idea and I want to do it like yesterday. And I realised that when I want to do something, I need all the people I know to help me. And that's what, you know, I stand on the shoulders of giants because so many people just open doors. And part of it goes back to my leadership is also very much based in my faith, so my philosophy of Islam is important to me. Because you have people like Khalil Gibran and Rumi who are great philosophers and I go back to the philosophers to also be inspired. And there's one of them who says it's good to give when asked but better to give unasked to understanding. And I always think of that, so I like to make connections, make a difference to people's life without them even asking. And I think when I think of leaders, I think they must do things that without people asking them to. And I think again, leadership now so much more, we need to have leaders who are respected. I think that's what so many people have lost in the way with what's happened in government, with what's happened in politics. There's a lack of respect. And I remember when I was growing up, leaders were people we respected and that's why you followed them. So I think again, you know, for leadership, it's about being authentic, of really being kind. I always talk about kindness and I know that seems again, sometimes out of place in the big picture, but I think it's become even more important. Out of all the programmes we do, Andrew, Kindness is the one that so many people say, I want to be on that list. And we are very excited. Just, you know, what makes people listen to you is who's part of your orbit. So, Jurgen Klopp was on our kindness list. And when he held the trophy and it was put out there, a lot of people took notice, Paul Polman from Unilever. So I think Kindness leaders have to be kind, they have to listen much more. And to me, leadership is all about really people your values more than anything else. And I think you have to be great communicators. Because I'm always inspired by leaders who communicate well and that who have that mind that think way above what any of us can ever think of, so that's important for me is, you know, to look at in the leadership of the future.

- So what I hear you talk about is a strong spiritual motivation. And this has been interested, we never set out to explore a spiritual dimension of leadership, but it's come up on so many of the podcasts in different forms. But when it manifests, it manifests regardless of the tradition. It manifests in service, it manifests in people and putting people at the centre, it manifests in a higher purpose coming to an organisation, and question like what is the organisation serving and what are we here for? And I think this is why you are finding words like kindness, which historically have been alien, certainly to business suddenly becoming part of the lexicon, suddenly becoming part of what's important and why you're getting so much traction with that work.

- Yeah, I think, when going back to the spiritual dimension, when you believe in something and a higher being, it gives you courage. It gives you belief in faith and resilience, and so therefore that becomes so important. And I think kindness, the reason why people are really, after the pandemic, we realise how many people had such a hard time and they wanted kind leaders. And sometimes being a kind leader is not just being, you know, obviously it's not about being a soft option, it's about being upfront, it's about being authentic, it's about being honest. So I think leadership, if there's leadership without kindness, it never goes long way. There's no legacy. One of our common friends, Professor Lolly Jory has said, when you are a kind leader, you go from being successful to being significant and you leave that legacy. And that for me is something that I always remember with great affection because that's what it's about.

- So we've covered this slightly already, but I just want to ask this question. When you look across the leaders that are having real impact, so you mix with a lot of people from royal families, you mix with people from the elite business and government. Are there people that stand out for you? And obviously it's some of these principles we're talking about that they're manifesting, but what really is significant for you when you look across the leaders of today, maybe even across the younger generation and the ones that you think are gonna have a really impactful role in the world as time moves forward?

- I think, for me, leaders are people who keep their word. And one person for instance, you know, when you get in touch with them, they respond immediately whether you are important or unimportant. An amazing person is Julia Gillard, who's, you know, is the ex prime minister of Australia. And I've met her on a couple of occasion. And whenever I do get in touch, it's like a immediate response with a great deal of thought, and with a lot of warmth. I love warmth in leadership. For me that's a very, I don't like that cold kind of leader. I like leaders who've got passion. And someone like Julie Brown, who's the CEO and CFO of Burberry, again, a woman who's so busy but will always open a door, she'll always put herself in your place and try to make a difference. And again, will keep her word. For me that's important. So John Peace, again, who chairs our judging panel for Women of the Future, will always try to add more without you ever asking him. So he's got the vision, he's got an incredible network, but he's actually using that for the greater good. So for me, those are the things that really affect me. And every time I think of them, you want to go back to those leaders, you want to promote them, and you want people to think those are the qualities we wish more of our leaders had.

- Hmm. And many of the people in your network, the women in your network are part of bigger organisations. Some of them are entrepreneurs, but many of them come out of large organisations, and so their success is about their own effort, but it's also dependent on the environment in which they sit. So I'm really interested in your view, when you look across all of these organisations, which ones are really creating an environmental culture which allow women to thrive? Because we know historically this has been difficult. What are they doing? So from your point of view, in a sense, I'm really interested in the organisations that are doing an amazing job, that complement what you are doing in terms of the diversity and inclusion activities that they're putting in place and the culture that they're creating.

- Yeah, I mean we work with so many different organisations, they all have different levels of the way their culture is actually brought to the forefront. And I think a lot of these young women in these organisations, it's about having champions and mentors and they're people who believe in them who give them opportunities. And there's something that, there's still so much, I was shocked to read this morning in an article about the misogyny that presented itself at the Aviva board meeting where the shareholders said some pretty misogynistic things and the chairman was appalled. So, and even though Aviva actually, to me, Amanda Blank is leading it, it's the most amazing organisation and doing a lot for diversity. They've been very supportive of our programme. And at every level try to help us too actually, and the women in there are involved, the London Stock Exchange Group is doing a lot too to help people and again, are trying to put diversity and inclusion in place. PWC is another one, Accenture. A lot of these places are really trying to make a difference to women. But I think the ones where I have so many women who ring me up and say they're having a really hard time and they want to move away, it's where the culture is one of a lot of competition where it's so driven by just the bottom line that you actually don't have time, that they're the elite organisation where obviously the turnover is very important and sometimes they lose the human touch. And I must have had at least four or five calls in the last two weeks of women who are burnt out. And, Andrew, that goes back to, you know, leaders. If we really want to have a society, an economy which thrives, we need to get the women on board. And almost all the women I know are really struggling with trying to have good childcare to be the best version of themselves. And I think till the government or organisations get childcare right, you're going to have that huge dropout taking place. And women are the ones who are really being marginalised. And it's come up much more in the last five weeks than ever before. Because I think, you know, Andrew, what when we are actually, it's interesting when we showcase our women, our winners, there are lots of people looking on and following us on social media, and it becomes aspirational for them to want to get the award to become part of this community. But then when they're trying to do it, they meet all these barriers of childcare, of misogynistic people in the organisation, you know, all the, and they struggle. And then they ring me up and say, how can I be part of this? And I always tell them, women can have everything, but not at the same time. So we have to accept that sometimes you have to let something go for a little while to come out higher and in a better place.

- It's so, so interesting listening to you. And I think your wisdom and insight into this is so appreciated because there's very few people who actually see that reality that you are seeing. So imagine I'm a CEO or I'm a senior leader of a large company and I'm listening to what you're saying and I want to do something about this. What would be your advice to me? Where do I start?

- I think, I always think of that wonderful paper that Mark Granovetter wrote at Stanford about the strength of weak ties. I think when people go, you know, CEO goes, he goes to the same usual suspects to try to find out more. I think you have to cast your net wide and go into different places that you would wouldn't normally go into and be more creative and innovative. I know they go to the head hunters and say, you have to give at least two women and two minorities, and this doesn't work like that. It's not a box ticking exercise that everybody, you know, you just have these people. And they go to the same people. And that's why I think coming to organisations like us, which have totally new blood coming up, I mean, just so exciting when I meet the young people. We had, as I said, we launched ESG. And I was really afraid. Again, as a leader, I thought, How do I get people from around the world? We only have good networks in the UK and in Asia. but you know, Andrew, we've got nomination from all around the globe, from Brazil, Argentina, Liberia, Micronesia. And that was because other people helped us. So when we go to people very different from ourselves, they will introduce us to very different people. And I think that's where the CEOs need to think of really thinking differently and innovatively and turning their normal suspects into totally different and start random conversations. I always believe if a CEO walk the streets of London and spoke to people that he would never speak to, he's going to really pick some new ideas. So I talk to people on trains and buses, always asking them, you know that I love having people over, so on safe on Saturday, I had 35 women for lunch. Nobody knew each other. They were all from different sectors, but the collaboration and the ideas that came out were amazing. So, going back to your CEO. Again, I think they have to be brave. They have to take risks. They have to be courageous and actually promote some people, and follow their heart. I think for me, intuition and your beliefs are very, very important. So I think it's like really, really thinking totally differently. I think they've done the same thing for too long. And you know, again, a very good example of, I mean, I remember Mark Wilson was CEO of Aviva, and that day we were having the judging at Aviva and one of our judges dropped out and his head of HR went and asked him, Mark, would you be free to do judging and meet these women under 35? And he had so many meetings and interviews, he actually cancelled them all and spent three hours meeting women under 35. And he actually at the end it said, it was one of the best days he had because he spoke to people at length that he would never have the time. And he said, I want to do this every year, but it just happens. I think they need to have, go into roles where they go and meet younger people who are not in the organisation. I think that's important. It gives you a breath that you wouldn't have otherwise.

- It is incredible what you're saying. I'm not sure, Pinky, you realise how wonderful you are. I'm not sure you realise the magic that you have. Because when you embody this curiosity, when you embody this interest in other people. Just as you are talking, these initiatives cascade across the world because you're tapping into something which is, and I think language, I struggle to find the language to describe this, but there's something that awakens in people when somebody shows them this interest. Whether it's a conversation in a taxi or a bus or cascading through social media, it taps into something innate that we want to be part of. And it's such a wonderful antidote to so much of the nastiness that's on social media and the problems in the world. When you show this genuine curiosity, genuine interest in other people, it's like a light comes on and it's so wonderful to listen to you and knowing how these networks work. It's so wonderful to just get a sense of how this development of human potential takes place.

- Andrew, you are too kind. It really is that learning every single day I want to learn, but I also want to be able to open doors for others to help them. And there's been talk about random conversations. I was sitting on the train, I love talking to people, so I started a conversation and told this guy about how I like to cook. He turned out to be from LEON, the big chain. And he was very interested in what I do. And I remember then he sent me like 10 vouchers to go and try the food at LEON. And so, you just never know. I love those random, you know, when you expect nothing and that's when the real magic takes place. So I spoke at the Association of British Surgeons in Liverpool. They were all talking about technical things, about hernia meshes and all. And I was the inspirational speaker. And one of the girls came up to me afterwards and I walked with her to the station. And I actually invited her for the lunch and Saturday and she's a junior doctor. And she came along and I think somebody says, how can you just invite people you don't know, and how can you trust someone? I think again, it goes back to leadership, to me it's the trust is the biggest thing because when leaders trust their own judgement and others, you're not wasting any time. Because when you don't trust someone, you're always looking to see if they're doing what you think they ought to be doing. So again, I think for me as a leader, and I trust people very easily. And you just want to give them the benefit of the doubt. And if you're warm and kind of yourself, it just flows. And I'm just totally, you know, open about, went you tell me nice things about myself because it means a lot to me, so thank you, Andrew. You're very generous.

- No, I know what you're talking about though. I mean, going back to meeting random people, I was talking to someone on a tube platform the other day. And it transpires he just launched his own chilli source company. And I said, oh, that sounds really interesting. We had a good conversation. I said, how's it going? And he said, it's wonderful. He said, do you mind if I take your address? And I said, of course. And you know, you have to trust. And five days later a bottle of the chilli sauce arrived, which is wonderful. You know, I could have thought, "Well, why does he want my address?" And so, you have to make that judgement because you're handing over some personal data. But I don't know, nine times out of 10, the world is a wonderful place and you can see where that human connection comes through. So, Pinky, I'm gonna end this podcast in the way that I've ended all the others with seven quickfire questions I've used with all my guests. So the first question is, which leader from history inspires you most?

- It's Rosa Parks, who didn't give up her seat on the bus. And for me that it always had a very emotional ring.

- And then when you look at leaders today, who inspires you most?

- Well, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who obviously has passed away has been hugely inspirational and I loved her spirit, and her achievements are just mammoth. So very, very big for me.

- Thank you. And the book that's made the most impact on your leadership?

- I think Amy Cuddy has really, you know, she wrote about presence and I just love that. I think it's so important. So, Amy Cuddy and has been my favourite book for a little while.

- And I'm going to rephrase this next question. So normally I ask, what characteristic do you look for in those you promote? Because you give more awards, I think, than you do promote people, I'm going to say, is there something that the really, really good winners have in common?

- I think obviously they're hugely talented, but I think what we love about the people we promote are those who think about others also. They think about what difference they can make to the world. It's not about just themselves. And humility is very, very important for me. We never promote anyone who has a shred of arrogance. That to me is the most unappealing trait in the people we promote, so we always have people who have great humility and want to really want to help others in their journey and be part of that journey too.

- And then when you look across the younger generation, what most inspires you about them?

- Their passion, their amazing energy. And also so many of them are collaborative, they're kind, they absolutely believe in everything they're doing, so it's that driving passion, their curiosity. I'm just always so inspired by the young generation. It keeps me, and every single time I think I've met somebody amazing, somebody else comes along that has that and more. And also their ability to do so much at the same time and not be phased by any of it and step out of their comfort zone, you know, being young, you do that and when you're innovative, but really their passion, their driving energy.

- And then what makes you hopeful about the future?

- Again, it's all the people that we've met, because I think really for me, the future depends on people. And the people that we know who are part of our network have those values that are so important. It's not just their resume values, but those eulogy values. Even at the young age, they're showing them. And that gives me such hope for the future really, and the creativity and innovation they are going to bring into our lives.

- And then finally, at the end of the day, where do you go for your inspiration, your renewal?

- Well, again, you know what, Andrew, I'm such a peoples person, that for me the inspiration I get is from all these amazing people that I know. And there's some wise people that I love talking to, to get their viewpoint on what they think. And there are some spiritual leaders who I kind of have aligned myself to. And they're business people, but they have a spiritual angle and I love to talk to them about it. And you know, for me it's to walk and really, music is such a great way also to get inspiration and travel. So, my inspiration comes from thinking of, I love also part of me so much, I'm going on more than that quickfire thing, but how can we still do new things? So I'm still, when people tell me when are you going to retire? And I think I'm having such a good time, why would I want to retire? Just again, thinking of new ideas. How can I change the world to keep on.

- My thanks to Pinky Lilani. My name is Andrew White and you've been listening to, "Leadership 2050," a podcast from Saïd Business School at the University of Oxford. If you've enjoyed this episode, please spread the word, follow us and maybe leave us a nice review. And don't forget, you can go back and listen to all my conversations with previous guests, including the Plastic Bank's, David Katz, and the Adara Group's, Audette Exel, If you'd like to hear more from Saïd Business School, exploring leadership, and how the business world is re-imagining the future, visit oxfordanswers.org. "Leadership 2050" is produced by Eve Streeter. Original music is by Seiberg. Our executive producer is David McGuire for Stabl Productions. In the next episode, I'll be talking to Emma Howard Boyd, the former chair of the UK Environment Agency. Until then, thank you for listening.