Hello and welcome to today's Leadership and extraordinary times event from Oxford University's Saïd Business School and wherever you are in the world whatever time it is right now thank you for joining us I am Mary Johnstone-Louis I'm senior research fellow here at Oxford Saïd and today we are discussing something truly extraordinary since its launch just over two months ago the better business act in the UK has gained support from more than 600 businesses across this country this act is a campaign that is described as its intention is to change uk law to align the interests of people profit and planet with every business's purpose and the responsibility of every business's directors specifically the campaign's objective is to amend section 172 of the uk's company act and to support these principles so these truly are extraordinary times regulation and legal change are sometimes caricatured as a risk to business but today we will hear from a ceo and an investor who support this legal change for business in the uk and have a chance to understand why so we're looking forward to this conversation both with the panelists and just as important with you and your questions for us and for them but first let me introduce my co-host for today Char Love who is activist in residence and co-founder at b lab uk she is also co-chair of b-lab's global climate task force and an entrepreneur in residence here at oxford Saïd Char over to you well thank you Mary and i think this is going to be a really great conversation today because we have amazing leaders who are going to be sharing their reflections on the better business act and i know as mary's already said we're going to be hearing from you as well um but let me start by introducing you to sort of two of our very special guests uh first we've got douglas lamont who's joining us he's the ceo of innocent drinks and he also co-chairs the uk's better business act and again as Mary said this is the campaign that just launched a few months ago and if i'm not mistaken douglas i think this week we just hit 600 uk businesses in support so i know we're going to hear a little bit more about it from you um but i also think it's really important for us to also recognize the humans that are behind the people that we're going to be having joining us today and so something about douglas that you might not see in his bio is that actually in addition to his two jobs as ceo of innocent drinks as well as co-chair of the better business act um douglas is also a taxi driver because he has four children that he often has to bring to different places so welcome douglas um i also know that you have a very uh important power up song that you listen to so when you're trying to get into the mood for the sort of economic systems change um you mentioned that sort of one of the songs on your playlist is american idiot by green day so uh hopefully we can almost have a little bit of a spotify playlist for all these power up songs um so welcome douglas um we're also joined by the one and only amy clark who is the chief impact officer at tribe capital a tribe impact capital part of me and tribe is the uk's first dedicated impact wealth manager and which works in partnership with clients to gain a deep understanding of their values and how these align with un sdg framework i have my little sdg pin on here today um uh amy um amy is also on the board of b lab uk and something about amy that you might not know um that's not on her bio is that she actually has a three-legged rescue dog and we might actually see in the background coming in and that she is happiest when she is barefoot in nature in her wetsuit uh so again welcome amy um and we know that your favorite song to get you sort of powered up for these economic systems change in these extraordinary times is the song uprising by the youth so i'm definitely putting that on my playlist now Mary um not only are you the senior research fellow here at oxford saeed but you are also the chair of b-lab uk um and i have known you for a very long time but i actually really enjoyed getting to know something about you that's not on your bio which is that you thought you were going to be a cancer researcher and that you actually had as a first job um cleaning medical equipment um when you were a teenager which i think is pretty cool so um Mary I also am going to be putting on my place list you're a power up song which is bob dylan you gotta serve somebody so anyways my friends we are joined by just a really amazing group of people and as i said as amazing as all these speakers are we know that your contributions to this discussion are really important so we want to actively get you involved please please please share your questions by the chat box on whichever platform you're watching from that might be linkedin it might be facebook it might be youtube i'm not sure if tiktok has a platform but anywhere you are just please keep those um questions coming in we just ask for you to keep those questions brief and make sure you're letting us know who you are and where you are um all right at this stage i think we should just get tucked in so Mary over to you to kick things off with our amazing panelists sounds great thanks so much Char and Douglas i'm going to kick off with you so the better business act it's a pretty lofty name very ambitious what is the better business act or sometimes affectionately term the bba why is it important you're actually the co-chair why are you backing it well well Mary first you did such a fantastic job of explaining it at the beginning i i think i can go into retirement but so in in very very simple terms you know we are we're trying to change the companies act here in the uk to get company directors to really think very differently and change the mindset in boardrooms away from you know our responsibility is to profit maximize for our shareholders to how as directors of companies do we balance the needs of our shareholders incredibly important in the system but with other stakeholders so so our people our wider communities and the planet and and why we believe it's so important and why i'm supporting it is because you know we need the pace of change in in the world around us to accelerate you know we've got a climate crisis you know we've got the beginnings of a a social injustice crisis going on as well and without speed of change accelerating you know we're not going to be able to lead the lead to us a fairer more sustainable future and that needs to happen quickly in the uk right now with the companies act as it's currently drafted which ultimately says to directors please maximize outcomes for uh shareholders and maybe think about these other things you've got incongruence because you've got you know a set of directors thinking right do i need to profit maximize if i want to do something else can i do that does the law allow me to do that have i got active investors who are going to go after me if i don't just profit maximize at the same time you've got government who definitely want to move in the right direction but they're having to put in adjustment policies and strategies to say well how do we get business to behave itself and so you've got the company's act asking directors one thing government policy pulling in another direction or imposing sticks if you like to say well if you behave like that then here's some law to stop you behaving like that and our view is if if we can get everything together and align so directors are pulling in the same direction with the government things will change faster and and so it's so important that ultimately the mindset is how does people profit and planet get put imbalanced by government by company directors and by all of us as individuals as consumers as as employees of companies and if we do that you know things will change faster who's behind the campaign

lots of different companies uh so the thing i really like is the diversity of companies involved so you've got big companies like john lewis and iceland and you know businesses like my own innocent drink supporting it but we've also got you know really small businesses coffee shops from cornwall but as well as london law firms investors um like amy you know there's a growing group of leaders from right across the uk that are saying you know we need to make this change we've also got the institute of directors supporting us and and they're really important because they're the ones that teach the manual to directors about how they should behave and and they recognize that this changes is needed and you know for them to be supporting this campaign shows the kind of strength of feeling that's out there from businesses to say you know we want to go in the right direction and this change will help us thanks so much douglas so interesting that one thing that we all share on this panel is a connection to an entity called uh b lab or b corp so b corps are companies that are certified uh due to a standard and also a legal change that they make uh both of you in innocent uh and in tribe are have gone through that process so is this a b corpse thing uh this this better business act you you alluded to the fact that it's not but why does that matter um it really matters because uh so as be courts we've already committed to this change so we've had to go through a fairly torturous process to change our articles of association to say we're going to behave like this but we we want that change to be for everybody and that's one of the key principles if we make this change it applies to all companies as a default rather than you know some some annoying legal process that you have to go through to change it it matters because as i said earlier diversity matters here this is not some niche group of you know far out there companies that are that are sort of got their head in the clouds this is all types of companies from all over the world uh you know and who who basically saying we need to make this change and as i said whether whether you're a big london law firm or you're a small you know scottish um you know investor or whether whether we've got some great companies from northern ireland who you know who are in graphic design you know the diversity of leaders saying we want to pull in the same direction is really important so it's much wider than than the b corp community um signing up for this and i think that just shows the strength of commitment to this type of change thanks so much so 600 companies and counting in just over uh two months so Char over to you well it is funny douglas as you've been reflecting i've been writing down some of the words and i realize there's like a whole abcs coming out from you know a for alignment b balance and business c is change d is diversity and i'm not going to go through all 26 letters but i did also want to pick up something else that i really heard from you um when you when you started reflecting on this question which is you know the pace change and i'm going to put a u out there which is like the urgency of action um so so thank you because i think you brought a lot of the spirit of the bba right friend center here um and amy i want to move it over to you because actually we know that there are sort of a series of core principles regrounding what the better business act is focused on um and they are align interest they are about empowering directors changing the default and reflect and reporting and you know amy you you know how much we haven't come around this idea of like accountants will save the world and this reporting piece in particular is pretty exciting um but i'd like to know how you think about these principles from your perspective as an investor here in the uk well Charles just before I answer that a couple of things first just everybody listening i'm really sorry i actually lost my voice yesterday so i'm hoping my voice is going to be okay for the duration of today um secondly char um mentioned that i like to go barefoot in nature in my wetsuit i am not a some kind of weirdo who walks around nature in her wetsuit it's i like barefoot in nature and i like to be in my wetsuit in the water as well so Charles just in case you inadvertently gave people the impression that i want around in the hills in my patagonia um it's a really good question in terms of why should investors be uh emotionally and intellectually engaged in the better business act i think quite simply um you know good investing is about finding the businesses of today and tomorrow and these are the businesses that are future fitting themselves to succeed in a constrained world a resource-constrained world a world where inequality is rife that for from an investment point of view means you really are going to be looking for businesses who understand the broader remit of working with stakeholders understanding stakeholders preferences desires understanding constrains the challenges that they're facing and whether their businesses are contributing to that or whether their businesses are actually solving for that so the better business act is in in many ways part of a suite of solutions that are out there that create a tide that raises all of these boats up and make it easier for investors to then understand which businesses out there actually really do understand the issues that they're facing because at the moment in the absence of regulation it's very very difficult investors are having to work really really hard to work out where those future fit businesses are so regulation and policy in the investment world as it relates to the sustainability of a business as it relates to the purpose of the business is absolutely required you know you and i share i've spoken at length about you know as you've just mentioned how accountants will save the world you know we look at one of the core parts or one of the call to arms kind of within the bba itself is this notion of reporting and ensuring that all businesses report on their performance at the moment there's a plethora of different reporting standards some companies report some companies don't report again it's really difficult for investors to understand you know where they can go to find good reporting annual reporting um that is based on science it's based whether on environmental science or social science etc if we look at empowering directors as well i mean we only need to look back a couple of weeks now to big oils back wednesday the role of law is becoming more and more prevalent and we've just seen that with shell in the um dutch district court that human rights has overridden the shareholder votes with regard to their energy energy transition plan um law the changes that are required in law run very deep and very very wide but until directors understand the obligations and the responsibilities on them to run those businesses in a future way recognizing all of those risks and those opportunities we will continue to have i think combative relationships with some companies and we'll continue to see too many companies taking safety relative safety in the narrative of transition we're transitioning give us time rather than those companies who have transitioned or who are transitioning with pace as well so the bba is such a fundamental part i think of a suite of tools that require to help investors better um allocate capital to those businesses that can provide those social environmental and economic solutions to the challenges that we face

thanks so much amy i think that's really comprehensive and it leads me to really want to hear more i think from both you and douglas but but douglas i'll start with you if that's okay around these are some lofty principles aligning interests empowering directors reflecting your uh your your impact in reporting um and what i would like to understand is how do you put this into practice for example douglas what would this look like if you were to change the way that you lead at innocent for example so now we've been leading innocent for the last 20 20 years and and actually built building on one of the questions in in the chat you know this isn't about uh stakeholders versus shareholders this is about bringing those three two things together this isn't just the right thing to do this is the smart thing to do this is what drives value creates success for companies you know like innocent you know we've come from non-existing 20 years ago to now being over half a billion of turnover and the number one in our category right across europe as a result of living these principles and being really clear on how you balance them now that that doesn't mean it's easy it's really really hard because every day you know there are trade-offs and ultimately every business leader has trade-offs even if they're trying to profit maximize but this introduces more items that or which you have to trade off you know the sustainability of your products the way that you treat your employees so the the more the more there's more to think about but ultimately getting it right delivers bigger and better outcomes you know in in terms of you know as an employer we you know we attract fantastic talent because we balance these principles and we think hard about that in terms of the value we get from attracting better quality talent ultimately allows the business to go forward so it no one's saying that this is to implement this as a director and this mindset is easy it's not it's really hard but it delivers better outcomes for your company and then delivers better outcomes for society as a whole and the planet and that's got to be a good thing you know we are in extraordinary times and they're extraordinary because they're dangerous times and and if we don't all work a bit harder and have to think a bit you know more wisely about how we do these things you know we're we're heading for for even more dangerous times but i think you know so it's an ask for everyone to step up but it's a very doable ask and that's what myself and other b corps have been trying to show and show encouragement for is that this is doable and you know hopefully showing the blueprint for others to follow thanks so much amy anything you would add on how you've seen these principles be put into practice specifically from an investor point of view yeah what i was going to say i mean just building on what douglas has said and also just recognizing one of the um uh questions in in the chat we became a be call from inception so when we set triabut we knew we wanted to become a benefit a b corporation we also knew that we wanted to align ourselves with the new um thinking around investment which as i said is you know future fit investing it's looking at uh responding to the um challenges that are outlined in the sustainable development goals um so we built it in from scratch which i think in some ways is is easier because you can you can build it around the new code as opposed to try and retrofit a business that has been initially built in the old code when you're having to effectually then recode um it's still really really challenging though and i think you know when we're out in um as investors in the marketplace looking at businesses fundamentally 95 probably 98 of what we're looking at are businesses that have thrived in the old paradigm they've thrived with the old code and we know that the old code is unfit for purpose it's it's it's friedman 101. um you know the last 45 years the last 100 years of business and the code that business has has been predicated on is not fit for the next 45 the next 100 the next 200 the next 250. um so we're working in a system that has got an awful lot of errant code it's got a lot of ghost code in it and we're having to kind of work against that and get individuals and get businesses to understand the power of new code and what it can deliver for that business short medium and long term we're having to fight short-termism as well so it's really really difficult but there are more companies out there who understand the imperative to transition who either have transitioned or who are transitioning there are more directors out there than probably we would think there are who get this um but it is hard work you know we're having to even as be core leaders we're having to work actively i think on a day-to-day basis against the learning that we've had whether that's been in school whether that's been in university you know we have all been steeped in kind of that friedman code and we're having to work against it and unlearn and relearn and i think a lot of that comes down to attitude and aptitude and courage um at the end of the day is are people willing to step back and say am i part of the problem or am i part of the solution if i'm part of the problem can i become part of the solution very interesting perspective and so in terms of you know this perspective that you guys are sharing it sounds very promising we have a lot of optimism but what are the risks that this introduces for example douglas what are the risks this would introduce for you from a business perspective and then amy i'll ask the same to you what are the risks uh for investors from getting involved or supporting this kind of initiative so uh as the chair you're not gonna say you're not gonna get me to say that there are too many risks uh from sort of committing to to support supporting it i think what what what i've heard as uh co-chair the concern that people have and you know we're already in discussion with the government about how we could go about implementing this is that as we make the change let let's not make let's make sure that it doesn't open up what sometimes get described as a lawyer's charter for people just to go after directors for the sake of it and say right under these new rules we want to test you know that whether you're living up to them or not what what we want to make sure is that the change is done in the right way to make the system go faster and make that mindset shift in boardrooms and behaviors around directors rather than opening up to a thousand different you know legal avenues for people to attack companies because because that wouldn't make sense this is about creating alignment of mindset and action between government ngos business you know and and wider stakeholders and if if we can achieve that with the right wording that sets the right intent for everyone then then we're going to be in good shape so so the risk is it doesn't happen because people are worried about that legal point i don't think they should be and i think the way that we're proposing to to bring it in you know avoid that and and you know we're making that point pretty clearly you know as you would expect me to say from a if it were to be to be delivered into into law and every company in the uk you know had to act against those principles i think the boat will just go faster and move in the right direction and and whether that's around sustainability whether that's about livelihoods all of those things you know will act more quickly because the system will have been reset and Mary you know much better than me whilst governance and and law and all that it can seem boring to people it is really important and it really is the fundamentals that then drive the actions behind it so you know make making sure that the foundations of this are right will will speed up the change we want to see absolutely so really really helpful observations done this i'm going to push a little bit on this so we have a very global audience typically for these sessions but they're also very likely our businesses who are based in the uk who are watching this and who maybe are asking themselves what risks would i face as a business if i were to join this group of 600 plus companies who have supported the vba so i've heard you say that you don't think there are risks or that you don't think those risks are are mitigated in certain forms or that you think they are manageable but what would you say to someone who who is interested is feeling that this is something that interests them but that actually they're they're feeling a bit unsure how have you been able to assuage that so i think i guess the other the other element you hear is oh i'm worried you know i'm the ceo or i'm in the management team we want to do this but we're worried our shareholders won't like it and and for me i say well if you've got a competent leadership group who go to their shareholders and say we want to make this change whether that's becoming a b court whether that's supporting the better business act it would be a pretty brave set of shareholders that say no we don't want our aligned leadership group to follow that path we want them to follow a different path so so i think if you're truly passionate about you know stepping forward in this new direction of balancing people profit and planet which i hope an increasing number of people's you know are and and we're moving that direction have the confidence to sort of step forward into that space and and take the risks and talk to your shareholders if if you require that before before signing up because you know as amy will talk to you much more eloquently than me you know increasingly investors want this as well so you know the risks are disappearing with each day that passes i would say amy what's your view on that risks that you see being discussed um among fellow investors actually on this this particular uh proposition in this particular campaign what risks have you identified um i'm sorry to sound a little bit like a broken record um and to follow douglas but there isn't really any downside risk associated with this the only downside risk is if it doesn't happen um what we then don't have is as i said that rising tide that raises all boats and makes it much easier for investors to understand the root direction of travel for a business in the absence of um a uniform regulation that covers very much the essence of being a sustainable business it becomes really hard for us to to work out which ones are intentional and material and which ones aren't and in that environment you end up getting a lot of green washing a lot of impact washing a lot of sdg washing you get a lot of presentation of core business as sustainable which when you then obviously do the due diligence is anything but sustainable so there isn't really i think a downside associated with this i mean to douglas's point there are enough shareholders out there now who understand what this is about and understand that this is future fitting increasing the resilience of your investments long term it's about good investing identifying good businesses as well the businesses as i said that are of today and tomorrow consumers get it as well consumers understand it we had the survey that we did last year ahead of this campaign you know 75 percent of the uk public are ready for something like this um and that's likely to be played out in a lot of markets around the world so we know consumers are ready for this as well and if i take my my kind of clients you know my end audience the people who come to tribe the reason they're coming to tribe the reason they want to partner with us is because in the absence of this regulation and policy we're pushing for it anyway we're doing this with our core investment thesis and this is what they want it's what they're ready for it's what it's the mechanism through which they um express their values and their beliefs and the passion for the change that they want to see in the world so you have this nexus happening between investors business leaders consumers wealth holders everybody's coming together so i really don't genuinely think there is a downside to getting involved in this there is a downside in it not happening um but you know the more of us who step up and lean in and and create the the unified voice for this the more likely it is that what it will happen and it will lead to great things thanks so much amy one i'm sure we'll pick up more uh healthy debate in q a so by all means send the questions through we're looking forward to making sure we have time for that as well but if you're just joining us this is our leadership and extraordinary times event uh which is put together by our team here at the university of oxford society business school I'm Mary Johnstone-louis I'm a senior research fellow here and today's subject is focusing on better business if you're just joining now you'll be learning very quickly that we're specifically examining the uk's better business act and i'm joined by uh douglas joined by apologies um by douglas amont the ceo of innocent drinks uh by amy clark who is chief impact officer uh at tribe impact capital and Char Love who among many other roles is activists and residents at B-lab UK so by the way all of these discussions are also available as a podcast you can search for leadership and extraordinary times from wherever you get your podcast content and you can catch up on this and previous events thanks so much Char over to you. oh thanks Mary and I'm just got pages of notes and drawings from this last round of questioning um and this point about the dangerous times almost like this question of what side of history do we want to be on is sort of something that i'm going to sit with for for a while um but i want to move track a little bit because we've actually just here in the uk had the g7 um down in cornwall and many eyes now i think are starting to look towards cop26 which is of the global climate conference of parties which is going to be taking place in glasgow later on this year in november and so i guess i want to start with you amy if i may i wondered how you see the work of the better business act linking to cop26 well i think if we look at what's come out of cop26 we've seen um you know uniform support for um a global threshold for corporation um tax now we can debate we can debate probably until the cows come home whether it's been said at the right level um but for the first time in sort of business in human history we have this unified global pact to tackle the thorny issue of corporate tax um we've also seen a unified global call for um tcfd and climate disclosure as well and this is where it starts to get i think really interesting with things for example like tcfd and climate disclosure um and reporting one of the key tenets of bba is reporting now as part of the announcement that came out of g7 not only was there wholesale obviously support widespread um support for deploying the tcfd more widely and that's likely to go into the g20 this month or next month it's likely to go to the g20 anyway and hopefully garner even more support there but within that statement as well was a call for support sorry a call to support even uh the work of ifrs foundation on uniform sustainability reporting as well and again Charles getting back to the role of the accountants in saving us from ourselves um you know there's a huge um i think growing interest in in the role of accountancy as it links to reporting but accountancy also links into aligned stakeholders you know looking at how do you cost in the true value of doing business the true impact on stakeholder communities how do you factor that into balance sheet and again this is all coming through ahead of cop so cop has hopefully um huge benefit for something like the bba in showcasing how the bba can sit alongside all of these different calls for action you know whether it's corporate taxation sits within the bba um to a certain degree whether it's for more uniform reporting and disclosure again alignment with the bba whether it's understanding climate equity and climate justice again sits within the bba with you know alliance stakeholders there's huge huge amount of crossover between what we're doing with bba and what has been happening what continues to be discussed as part of the cop 26 run up to cop26 and obviously hopefully the negotiations later this year so the bba i think for us as an investor is nothing but supportive and additive to the conversations already away already underway on climate great i have to say amy i did bring my t-shirt so it was all ready here you don't know world one i always have it by my desk and uh i know it's gonna be one that i probably will wear um when we're at cop 26. um douglas can i come to you because i'd be curious your views on again the link and how you see building on what amy's just sort of shared um the better business act really fitting within sort of the road to cop 26 and what we hope to see happen here in the uk yeah i think with all these big events there's obviously a lot that's kind of pre pre-programmed but i think what where they're really helpful is is bringing a sense of urgency you know in terms of what's required so you know obviously cop 26 and the focus on the environment an absolute essential element of what we're trying to do with the better business act and and why nigel topping who is basically organizing the whole event and kind of chief champion of it from a uk government perspective is is out there saying he thinks the better business act uh it you know should be supported and there's a good thing and and we need to make it happen um you know for us it's a great opportunity to kind of get visibility and get urgency about these changes as well as obviously support the wider initiatives around cop cop26 in terms of the you know the specifics of climate change obviously the better business that goes slightly wider than that in terms of the change we're looking for but yeah i i think they just it's just helped with g7 and cop26 in the uk this year to create that sense of urgency but but also see the increasing number of voices that are coming out from business in support of all the various different initiatives as amy says you know with we're getting momentum here this is now about speed yes i love this idea of both speed and momentum and how do we activate on it um well and as as some of you may know at b lab uh one of the big cop 26 activations that we're in the process of planning is an activation campaign called boardroom 2030 where we're inviting companies b corps and non-b corps from around the world to host a boardroom meeting as if it were in 2030 and that'll include really having to think through like who's around the table who are your board members um what is on the agenda how are decisions being made and what rules are needing to be followed uh and i wondered if you'd both just sort of share a few sort of reflections and riff a little bit on imagining what you think boardrooms in 2030 are going to look like and maybe amy can i start with you what does what does a boardroom look like in 2030 well i hope she are radically different to the way that a boardroom currently looks i think that goes without saying um 2030 boardroom has really got to reflect the society that we live work and play in um and if you know as a as a businesswoman looking at boards on a regular basis obviously as an investor um you you need to have diversity represented in all forms within that board it's not just gender diversity it's ethnic diversity it's socioeconomic diversity it's cognitive neurological diversity um obviously there's age diversity as well you and i shall have spoken at length about the need to get the next generation through onto these boards as well equip them to be able to um understand how to work at board level but we need to get them through you know you you need to be reflecting your stakeholders on your board now you also need to be reflecting the core skills and talent and experience that is required to be able to really advise that company and i had a really interesting conversation with somebody other day was talking about expertise and obviously what you need is expertise on a board you do but you can't have expertise without lifting experience you've got to have that lived in experience and i think at the moment what we're finding with a lot of boards is we may on paper have you know sort of the traditional white collar been to all you know the necessary universities got all the necessary diplomas have they actually got the lived in experience of what that called product and service is ultimately a tackling or b what that company is exposed to no they don't so it's it's you know diversity in all forms including that lived in experience and being able to ensure that you're bored really understands the footprint that your business has and also has the experience of working with the solutions to tackle those footprints um so i can't tell you exactly what it's going to look like but i i i know what you know the the mechanisms and i think and the the the criteria that i'm looking for and it's exactly what i've just outlined beautiful well thank you and and i think it's gonna be really interesting to see how a lot of different businesses um address some of these questions and really this point lived experience i think is going to be quite critical to mention one of the other sort of creative questions that's coming up as we sort of start talking to businesses about hosting a boardroom 2030 meeting is also where those meetings happen are we going to see board readings happen um underwater are we going to see them in forests are we going to see them in schools so there's a lot of interesting scope to explore some of these issues from using a creative imagination approach um douglas i wondered if i could come to you with this question um what do you think a boardroom is going to look like in 2030 i think you know slightly well building on amy's point yeah and something that we're thinking a lot more about how do we listen better uh so you know i think it's been it's very easy as business leaders you take your experience you take the issues at hand that you think are the issues and you just kind of get on and make decisions and try and inject some pace into you know how your company is performing i i think something certainly that the sort of black lives matter uh activity of the last 12 months has really taught me is actually slowing down a little and listening a little more is good for business and and making sure that those voices of all those different types of stakeholders are listened to represented in that decision you still might you still might

not check of everybody but doing doing some good listening before signing from a wider group rather than the six or seven people that sit around you on a on a day-to-day basis and cheer you on a ceo um is i think going to be the fundamental difference from now until 2030 and i think investors will insist on it employees will insist on it and the power of employees unfortunately goes up with every day that passes i think employees have a louder voice than they realize inside companies and and will learn how to use it more effectively as well so whether that's shadow boards merging into kind of a blended boards i think will be really important i i can't see us doing it under water i have to say by 2030 maybe 20 50 for that but some some things don't change as quickly as you would imagine if you only look if you look back to 2015 it's still it's still tea biscuit and cake around the table well fair enough to that um yes i'm just i'm trying to channel um amy wearing wetsuit and you know where is the place that i could go in in the next sort of you know uh nine or eight years but you're right i think there's going to be sort of a range of questions we can ask and i think 2030 is one question but actually thinking 2050 might be another a whole other set of boardroom activations we think about uh so thank you both um at this stage i think i'm gonna turn it over to you Mary because i think you've been keeping an eye on sort of some of the excellent questions that have been coming in through uh through the chat function absolutely no it's been a really really dynamic chat which is exactly what we want so keep them coming in no matter where you are in the world uh put them in to the platform of your choice and i think there's one theme that we really need to address head on which is coming through quite clearly i'm going to pick up the question from andy hawkins and just to paraphrase he's saying the early adopters of this approach to business and within that we might include b corps as well as others are fabulous but respond but his question is don't they represent a minority view how do you or how does the bba get out of what we could call an echo chamber and really become mainstream so this is a question really i think for for douglas primarily and also for your eight you ain't around what have you seen around trying to make these messages more palatable more exciting more engaging for a wider range of audiences yeah i i totally agree i mean we we definitely need to break the echo chamber and why one of the key principles here is that this becomes the default for everybody because when i talk to a wide wide group of different types of leaders of all different types of companies it is not usually that their intent isn't there they don't know where to begin or how to start acting or having having the board meetings or or you know in case of small companies is not that formal in terms of the discussions about how they do things differently so so i think the the better business act is a foundational piece that then you know it creates an environment where people have to think differently you start behaving differently and then what needs to follow and come alongside all that is the tools and the support and the techniques of how you do that better as a small company as a medium-sized company as a big big multinational so you know and i saw a question earlier about you know is it good that you have these things called b corps that sort of sit as unique companies nothing would please me better if everybody followed really really high standards and that was the standard that was the law and b corps didn't have to exist or all we're trying to do is be corpse or campaigning for the better business act is is shift where the mainstream are to a kind of to us to a slightly you know different different place so i'm not i'm not trying to create unique clubs i think everyone in b court would love be caught not to exist it exists to prove that sustainable capitalism is a successful model in order to encourage others to follow not to kind of create high walls and block others out so we're trying to democratize this yes we're at the front end of it but but i i'm reaching my hand back to say you know how can we bring everybody with us i guess it's the intent that we have if we're seen as elitist or unique or the one percent that's not great because everybody needs to change innocent being good on its own is pointless it doesn't create the change that we need i i think the urgency of change will hopefully come through now it's different from a pandemic where it's right in front of your eyes but a climate crisis and and other inequalities in the world i think are going to start to cause very very visible problems that will make real up everybody and hopefully mainstream companies or or the 50 60 companies know that we've got to do things differently and the war for talent will also drive some of that as well because more and more individuals are choosing the type of company they want to work for and that that's that that's change is coming fast and and therefore you know companies will follow that well thanks so much and i think what we're picking up on is also a question that's coming to us from india this is from trish sharma thanks so much for your question trish and it's around this idea that initiatives like the vba are a systemic approach to looking at a problem as opposed to for example a company individual-led approach to looking at a problem and so what i think trish is picking up in her question is the issue of collaboration and what has been your experience or what do you see as the future of collaboration between business and for example civil society organizations ngos what kind of collaborations do you think will be required in order to meet some of the achievements and some of the goals that the bba sets to achieve either of you amy go ahead please i was gonna say i think i think one of the really interesting things that's come through um in the last few years is this notion of corporate social venturing um and a shift in that dynamic between the sort of the philanthropic relationships that you that we have had historically between the charity world um and the business world and this to your point of this sense of collaboration and partnership and really understanding what that can lead to um you know we're seeing for example in in the investment space we're seeing some very interesting tie-ups between very well-known social enterprises and charities and fund managers you know bringing the the charities straight the social enterprise bringing their expertise of whatever social or environmental or economic issue that they may have the expertise in bringing that to the floor to say if you want to tackle this issue and you want to bring them the might of the public marketplace to helping tackle this issue let's work out how we can collaborate in creating an investment vehicle that focuses on those businesses who do get it who are tackling it who are creating those solutions this is already happening and we're seeing corporate social venturing now i think start to seep out and become it's not mainstream but i think it will become mainstream in redefining that relationship which i think has always been quite um it's been an unhealthy relationship i think sometimes when you look at you know the way that business and charities often often partner um you know this has got to be a partnership of equals recognizing that those on the front line those ngos those social enterprises have real gold in the insights and the knowledge they have around those disenfranchised or marginalized communities or fractured ecosystems they know what works they know how to create solutions for this and if those solutions sit in your supply chain as in you know the problem that is being created sits in your supply chain whether it's upstream or downstream then this isn't a philanthropic partnership or relationship this is a solutions based partnership that fundamentally tackles how you run your business and what your core product and service does and that recodes i think the relationship massively and then leads to hopefully knock-on effects within how your broader stakeholders as a business then look at what it is that you're doing so trisha's question is brilliant and it's a really really good question because we do now i think need to inhabit a world where there is more corporate social venturing there's a there's more equality between charity and business the end of the day we are all businesses you know whether it's it's the difference in how we utilize and treat our profits um but we're all trying to be successful at what it is that we do and we all have our unique insights and gifts that we can bring um so for me i think csv is going to be very very interesting over the next few years to see where that takes us corporate social mentoring thanks so much amy and it reminds me of something that i've heard sure i'll pull you in here to have you share a little bit of your perspective on something called the movement of movements which i think is very connected to the question that trish is asking if you could share a little bit about that in response to this question that trish has raised yeah and it's a great question and um and just great to hear amy your your reflections on on corporate social venturing it's great to hear from your perspective as an investor where you're seeing that um become increasingly part of of the conversation um and Mary yes to the point about the movement of movements i mean this was very much um inspired by some of the work you did a few years ago go on in pursuit of inclusive capitalism and it's just recognizing actually that there are a series of of levers that we know or interventions um that will be needed to be pulled in order to drive these systemic changes that we've been talking about today and actually recognizing that one of the things we can do to really work on with speed and strength and urgency um pulling those levers is find new ways to collaborate and and that might be with collaborating with people who have a similar view of what system intervention they want to be activating um but might be coming from different sectors and might be coming from different movement organizations but the more important uniting forces the change that they want to see happen um so i think a really important step to doing that is is to map like where these interventions are who's working on it and busting down sort of some of the silos that can exist and really actively finding ways in doing this mapping um identifying where those opportunities for collaboration exist um so i i would say if people are interested in this to actually check out some of your research that you did a few years ago around this in pursuit of inclusive capitalism that starts mapping out these levers um and and again looking quite actively for the types of partners you can work with that might be different ones than than you've traditionally worked with but reflect this sort of spectrum of different organizations and sectors thanks so much anything else that you would add douglas on that particular collaboration question no i i think increasingly what you'll also see is collaboration between companies and we're already seeing it so you know from our perspective we're building what i hope will be the world's most sustainable food and drink manufacturing site in rotterdam right now and we've committed that we're going to completely open source all the learnings about that good and bad to even our closest competitors because sustainability has to be a team sport it can't be a source of competitive advantage you know back to my point earlier innocent being good on its own doesn't achieve anything we all we all have to move the buffalo herd has to move so i think what you'll see and we're already seeing beyond just b corpse more and more companies coming together to solve some of these big problems and work together on things that 20 years ago it would have been so like no they're my competitor i mustn't talk to them that that's changing really fast so collaboration yes to ngos and others but but also between companies that were historic competitors i think you'll see more and more of it no absolutely thanks so much douglas and i think i want to open it up to think about you know this really is an ambitious campaign and i wanted to think about a question that's come in from steve podmore uh which is asking what would it take to get this over the line so on the point of collaboration and support what does the bba need i'll ask you specifically douglas when you feel like the kind of resources you know whether it's it could be philanthropic it could be partnerships with other companies you mentioned the institute of directors has been very supportive what else is needed that's a question that's coming in from steve thanks so much for that that that and i'll build on another question of you know what what's the sort of counter argument and what why no if you like i i think you know and we've started conversations you know with mps and with government and you know we've got good cross-party support we had a launch in parliament three or four weeks ago where we had speakers from every single party uh you know in support which is quite a rare thing and specifically with the government again the conversations we've had with them that they are supportive of our outcomes the challenge for any government for anyone that knows that world and i'm learning fast is that actually legislative legislative change is liquid gold because there's so actual little time in parliament to debate these things and what are the priorities across their full agenda so what we need is it's not really about money it's about it's about commitment and voice ev every individual and every company and every institute of directors you've got a drum you've got you've got a drumstick just beat the drum and if we're all beating the drum loudly saying we want this change to happen and government are hearing it more and more and you know we know consumers are with us you know in all the polling we've done 70 80 percent of consumers are saying what do you mean this isn't already happening why not so we've got we've got business support we've got consumer support we've got good cross-party support but we need that business support to be louder and louder so they realize that there isn't just 600 companies it's 6 000 60 000 leaders in the uk saying we want this change because we think it will drive you know all the things that we've talked about here so it's about not just signing up because you you know hopefully lots of people will sign up to this following this and other events but it's then saying how do i want to show up as an individual am i going to go out and campaign for this am i going to go out and convince my you know five friends that also run companies to support this so you know bang that drum loudly and encourage others to do it is really key to this it's it's less about money because this is more about i think the government you know in a in a in a legislative uh unrestricted environment i think this is the kind of thing that would go through so this is just about making sure that our voice is loud and heard and they realize we should be one of their top priorities not one of their medium priorities thanks so much douglas and in terms of your own experience of getting the support uh really from your own board and from your own leadership team for this uh is there anything you can share that might be useful uh by way of lesson uh for others who are thinking about this topic at the moment yeah i mean i i guess it wasn't hard for my board and you know from my fellow directors you know this is kind of how how we think obviously my company is owned by coca-cola you know one of you know one of the world's biggest companies and again you know when i said becoming a b corp or supporting this act they're like well that's that's who you are that's what you you know you you represent as innocent absolutely we're fully supportive and also they want to see and learn you know from it as well so it was a relatively smooth path as i said earlier if if you've got a committed leadership team that believe in something it's a brave investor that turns around and says no we want to do completely opposite because they're risking that high quality leadership team going well okay we want to do something different too in another company so i think it's about your own self you know it's about your own self-commitment to it and then being brave with that which is ultimately what makes change happen um it's you know it's not passive nodding saying that sounds nice it's active i'm gonna do something about this and i'm gonna join the movement if you like Mary can i just uh add to what you go ahead yeah just to add to what douglas was saying as well i mean obviously um in a public marketplace where you're likely to have a quite potentially quite a diverse number of shareholders there is nearly always going to be one who will understand what it is you're trying to do and a private marketplace might be a little bit different but in a public marketplace you know with somebody for example like innocent um any other of the sort of the the listed companies out there there are more impact driven and sustainably oriented investors out there than you might at first imagine given what's especially what's happened over the last 18 months um globally but also within the markets as well so i would add to what um douglas was saying is get to understand your shareholders as well really well their motivations why they've invested in you what it is that they really like about you what excites them about you as well and you'll be quite surprised often when you start to sort of really understand them and understand their motivations for being you know um part of your journey that you've probably already got some sustainably uh minded and purposeful investors already in with you get to know them use them get them to help you if you are struggling if you are having any sort of points of resistance broaden the team you know the pitch on the team at any one time is not just the people who work for the company it's all of your stakeholders so identify them get them on the pitch with you and then start to make that that that noise about why you want to support this thanks so much amy shout over to you well i i don't know about you guys i'm certainly feeling like sort of itching my fingers and sort of like a in my toes to just want to get acting and so um with this sort of drumbeat sound in the background uh i wanted to turn it to douglas and and then you aimed me very briefly just to say what can we all do about this like what is the call to action um that you'd like to encourage everyone that's tuning in to this uh leadership and extraordinary times to do so douglas what can we do what's our action and again i've sort of changed what i thought i might say in terms of that how do we make mass change happen which is one of the questions i guess one of the calls of actions or is we haven't cracked it right so you know we're sitting here going we want to change we want this to become a mass thought process but so one of my call to action is if you've got good ideas around that if you've got experience around that please come towards us you know we're we're here believing in this stuff doing our best but we're not perfect humans either with it all the answers so so i'm listening so if people have got good ideas off the back of this about how to make this campaign accelerate how to in general drive wider mass change please please get in contact with me and and the campaign team and we'd love your help as it were of course sign up but basically choose how you want to turn up as a human in the next five years i think it's a really important time in in human history and you know there's this sort of unclear threat in front of us that's getting louder and louder and more of us to act and really step into this space whether it's supporting the bba whether it's leading your company a different way or whether it's doing other things as a as a citizen as a consumer and you know types of companies you you report through your purchasing habits really consciously think about how you want to show up in the next five years because i think it's a really important time beautiful amy what's your call to action for all of us today revolution's going to be crowdfunded and the crowd is us okay so building on what douglas said obviously sign up write to your mp ask them to support this um speak to your friends and family spread the gospel spread the gospel as wide and as far as you can you know this change is absolutely required the time is here and the time is now and we need everybody to kind of get to not just business leaders we need everybody we need the crowd to come and support us with this so if you can spread the message love it i actually just got a little bit of goosebumps there so thank you both um i i am simply going to add to the call to action here is that there is more information on the vba website for anybody who wants to learn more and i would just invite anyone who's also interested in expowering your director directors uh by exploring maybe hosting your own boardroom 2030 meeting so please feel free to reach out if that's of interest to you I think Mary we're coming to the very end of our wonderful hour together so I'm going to turn it over to you to close us out just a few comments just first of all thanks to everyone who tuned in thank you to the team thank you to the panelists and and to ushar i think just to say this is a radical session it's it's out of the box it is one of the things that looks like extraordinary extraordinary times leadership and extraordinary times and this idea of looking at this kind of change is a radical thing and it touches on a lot of research that goes on in all corners of the school so everything from the knowledge equity program at the skull center which amy you touched on the idea of lived experience and the importance of that all the way to the work that's going on on uh reporting and standards of reporting that are going on with for example uh scholars including Richard Barker and Bob Eccles here this touches on so much the school is interested in there is no one uniform view on these topics we want to stimulate debate and we just want to thank you for being part of it uh our theory of change you can hear a little bit more about in a piece that sharon i wrote just recently it's available on hbr.org harvardbusinessreview.org and it looks about how do you move beyond the idea that individual ceos here as heroes with all respect to to douglas will make the kind of systems change that we're just talking about in this session so thanks so much for joining us you can always pick up on previous sessions and this one online and really really appreciate all your great questions thanks so much everybody