Christiane Wijsen (00:01): When we do business transformations, you have the really fun ones where you go into innovation and people like it, they're inspired. But I think it's more interesting here also to talk about the hard ones. Right? And how do you get people behind? if I describe this plan where you announce that you will reorg the organisation going from 500 to 300 employees, it is not something where people immediately say, yeah, let's go together. Right. And still you need this togetherness and, and this community to make it happen in, in a good way. Right. So that's challenging. Adam Canwell (00:51): When you look at the transformation programmes you've been involved in, what do you think is at the heart of getting it right, Christiane Wijsen (00:57): Being very clear about why, why are you doing that? If you cannot explain the why, and certainly in difficult transformations, if you're not clear, even in your own, why certainly when you let go so many people, why are you doing that? Um, that has to be really clear. I think that's my starting point. Um, the what to, how okay. But, but really why am I doing this? And, and being able to, to translate that and to bring that to the organisation. And then the second thing for me is, um, creating a community around you first, probably with a, with a small leadership team, as it often goes, but then being able to extend that to the broader organisation and creating kind of, um, movement, I would say, or togetherness to do it together, the issues also isn't not that much on, on the brainy side of it, the techy side, those are the things you can also prepare very well, uh, numbers, um, technical, uh, frameworks, etcetera, but where it goes wrong. If, if it goes wrong, it is on this emotional side, on people don't buy into it. People don't want do it. Um, and, and to turn this into, yes, this community, this, this movement, this idea of together, we will be strong. We'll do it together. I think that's when you really feel that you can, you can move really important things. Andrew White (02:33): When you step back and look at the process you followed, um, from the point of completion, um, is there a way you'd describe it? Is there a metaphor that comes to mind Christiane Wijsen (02:45): The metaphor I'm a sailor! I didn't say that. Yeah, but I'm a sailor. So the metaphor is, is absolutely for me, the captain on the ship ride. I don't know if you have been sailing, but, um, it's you prepare very well. I'm not a captain. My husband is the captain. I'm just executing orders there. So that's also a very good training, uh, for any business leader. I can recommend that one. So preparing very well, the journey, um, I'm a bit worried. Like if the weather, if there's too much wind, I would say like, can we not stay in the Harbour where he would say like, um, no Christiane will go out and I have some destiny in mind, right. Where I say, but sure. Can we wait a little bit longer? So I think that metaphor holds well, while there is a lot of preparation he's doing then in the back, even I'm, I'm often not, um, involved in, in, uh, planning the journey, looking at the weather forecast, preparing the ship well, etcetera. Christiane Wijsen (03:44): And then, um, yeah, he has to keep up morale, right. There is a briefing. We, we all get a bit the instructions, but also it's like the team bonding together. And then when you go out, it, it can be very unpredictable. You can get into regal into storm, right. So, and then you have to be agile, you have to adapt and you have to, you have no choice. You have to keep the morale on board because if somebody starts like, you cannot get out of it. Right. You're on the ship. And certainly when there is a storm, you need everybody. So this captain needs to be able to keep morale up, uh, keep this team spirit up, um, uh, avoid panic. Um, and, and, and again, yeah, then you have this technical planning looking again, in the meantime at, uh, the charts at the weather forecast, the technical side, it, but also, um, yeah, making sure that, um, mummy on board is not stressing out and still functioning. Right. The metaphor of sailing, I think, is one that is working for me. Of course. Very well. Adam Canwell (04:55): I'll tell you what Chris. Yeah. What I love about that is we have been struggling with this for at least six months and, um, failing and you've absolutely just nailed it. But what's also quite funny is Andrew is a sailor and, uh, and he didn't, he didn't come up with this analogy at all. Speaker 4 (05:11): Yes, it's true. It's true. Christiane Wijsen (05:13): and what do you think about the metaphor, Andrew? Andrew White (05:15): I think you're absolutely right. Adam's right. I missed the very thing that was right in front of me. It's such a good example because it's such an intense, explicit, um, way of thinking. Um, and you're right. There's a whole load of unpredictable things, particularly when you take people out who haven't sailed before, um, you, you know, some people absolutely fly. Some people go down with seasickness, um, and that's, and as you know, that's totally unpredictable. You can go out one day and you don't get seasick. You go out the next day in better conditions than you get seasick. Um, some people love it. Sometimes the dolphins turn up and that lifts everybody's spirit. Um, but that's totally unpredictable . And so you've got, and then you've got tide in there. You've got unpredictable weather, and then you can get all kinds of weather as you know, in one day. So, yeah, I think it's wonderful Christiane, uh, really, really interesting. Adam Canwell (06:03): If you were talking to a, a new leader that hadn't been through a transformation before, what would be the most important thing you would want to share with them? Christiane Wijsen (06:14): It would be probably lets see, one thing that's overlooked is this hard element to say, don't forget in any transformation you're dealing with human beings is the most important. You have to bring them along, listen to them, respect them, create trust. Uh, that's probably if, if you do that, right, things will, will work out. So the most important thing is, is, is, uh, it's a people's business. It's it's yeah, don't forget. Uh, the heart side of it. That would be my advice. And I think with that one, I would say like most transformations are durable and will come to a good end. But if you forget that one, uh, then, then it becomes really difficult. So that that's the one. I also see that it's sometimes overlooked because it, it, it, uh, requires that as a leader, you open up, you should also show vulnerability. You speak about the difficulties. So it's not, not all people are comfortable doing that. So it's, it's a, two-way street, right? And, and that's really advice that you have to also open up yourself and can really connect to the people that are with you in the transformation. Certainly when it's difficult and when it's an easy, um, sailing trip, nice weather, everything is easy. When, when it gets rough, you have to speak to each other and find that true connection. So that would be my advice, Adam Canwell (07:53): Invest in the crew, Christiane Wijsen (07:55): Invest in the crew. Adam Canwell (07:56): They're the only ones who are gonna get through it. You know, it's the obvious part that they are the only ones that are gonna get through it. Christiane Wijsen (08:02): Yeah. And, and if they let you alone and, Andrew you know that if you are alone as a, a captain on the ship, you're lost, you need those helping hands. You need people that support you certainly when you are in rough time. So yes, that, that would be my advice.