Andrew White:
Hello, my name is Andrew White and I'm the host of the Leadership 2050 podcast. And I'm here with my co-host Adam Canwell from EY.

Adam Canwell:
Hi, Andrew. Really looking forward to the conversation coming up, where we've got Geoff joining us from L'Oreal. And I think as we did the research and saw this case study, it pulls out so many of the kind of key factors that we're looking at in the research. How as a highly successful organisation do you get ahead of the disruptions that you're facing into? How do you create true belief in a transformation across the top team and then out to an organisation? And how do you create an environment that constantly learns as you go forward? So really looking forward to this.

Andrew White:
Yeah, I think you're right. And I'm really looking forward to hearing Geoff really unpack the story of transformation that L'Oreal's been going.

Andrew White:
Geoff Skingsley from L'Oreal, a company that's been at the forefront of transformation over the last few years. Geoff, thank you very much for joining us today.

Geoff Skingsley:
Great view with you, nice to be able to take part. Thank you.

Andrew White:
So, Geoff, can I kick you off with a big question, really, to introduce us to what transformation means in L'Oreal? How have you seen this show up over the last few years? What does it mean? How does it affect you? And I guess what's the transformation agenda that you're working on?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I suppose the first thing to say is the company in its ethos has got this idea of always trying to stay ahead of the curve, always trying to anticipate what happens next. I think that's an important underlying, almost cultural factor. So the transformation I'm going to talk about is one that moved the company into being completely digital front and centre. And in the 2020s, everybody assumes digital is a natural state of affairs, but if you roll back 8, 10 years, digital was still in its infancy, at least outside, just pure marketing. And the transformation that took place inside L'Oreal started in about 2013. And the idea was to move the entire organisation to be digitally ready and digital first. Which was really faster than I think most people certainly in Europe were going at that stage.

Andrew White:
So in a sense, take us right back to the beginning. How did this start? Because it's often difficult when a company's doing well, it's difficult when you're hitting KPIs and L'Oreal's a very successful business, to kind of say we have to change. So was there specific things you saw that really started to move the organisation and open the organisation to this kind of new digital first transformation as you described?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I think what happened is up until the moment when this transformation changed scale, it was really just something that was in the marketing teams of the brands. And what really changed is the CEO basically realised the speed at which things were going certainly in other categories, other sectors that were liable to hit our sector sooner or later, and he decided we just had to have a completely different scale of ambition and scale of transformation to get out of the realm of just the marketing experts and bring it front and centre into the whole company. And so he led from the top and he made sure that he'd had his executive committee leading with him. I was on the executive committee at the time and so that's really why I'm able to talk about it because I saw it happen. He basically shook us up one day and said, guys, I don't think you realise what is down the road, and we need to therefore prepare ourselves for how our industry could transform. We'd like to be at the leading edge of that.

Andrew White:
So how do you do that? You can see exactly why he would've said that. What do you do concretely to take an organisation down that road and make that happen?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I think most organisations can do incremental change. They can keep sort of fine tuning at the margins to make it better and better. And I think the CEO said, no, this needs to be something that's not incremental at all, this is a transformation. And he did two things that I think were designed to be very public, visible illustrations, that this is not a business as usual thing.

Geoff Skingsley:
The first one was appointed, straight into the executive committee, an individual who's an expert in digital everything. As in a lot of well established successful companies most members of the executive committee have been in the organisation 20 years, they've got a huge amount of experience and here he plucked somebody out of somewhere else. A digital expert straight in at the level of the very top part of the organisation. So that was highly symbolic, not only for the other members of the executive committee but for the rest of the organisation as well. And that was his first statement to say, this is something different. This is something that has to start right at the top and then afterwards percolate through the organisation.

Geoff Skingsley:
The next thing, a few months after this appointment he took the entire executive committee for one week to Silicon Valley. We are a European based organisation and he said, okay, empty your diaries guys, one week in Silicon Valley. You are going to meet the disruptors. You are going to meet the people who in other categories, in other areas have changed their industry. You will bathe in disruption and you will see firsthand what they did, how they did it, why they did it because either we will be part of whatever disruption will take place in our industry or we will be disrupted. I think he wanted to get us ahead of the queue. So we spent a week being saturated with all the experiences of Silicon Valley of the people who they're all household names but at the time they were at the leading edge in their own industries. It was a way of taking us to realise what's happened elsewhere, what might happen in our industry and how we can anticipate it and be part of it.

Adam Canwell:
And Geoff, the interesting dynamic you are playing with is you're taking it a highly successful organisation and insisting the highly successful organisation has to disrupt itself quicker. You kind of trying to lean into the disruption rather than react to the disruption. How did you create belief across the executive committee? Not just a kind of intellectual there's a disruption coming, but I'm guessing you all had to own it and really believe in it to start to really pivot the organisation to a different direction.

Geoff Skingsley:
Yes. I mean, you're absolutely right. We did not have a burning platform. We had a successful business that was ticking over very nicely and therefore there's a lot of inbuilt belief that what we're doing right now is more than adequate to keep those growth numbers coming in. And I think the Silicon Valley trip was designed to take us out of our normal workspace, out of our industry, out of our normal way of thinking, and as I say, bath us in these other experiences. So that by the time we came back, we'd said, wow, the world can actually be very different. I think that trip was able to establish the degree of conviction amongst the executive committee that change was needed and that we had to drive that change. I think if we simply had a presentation in the boardroom, it would've been, yeah, that all sounds very interesting. I think it's very different when you go and meet people and you hear their success stories and you realise just how fast things can move. There may be some very other agile players out there who are thinking of things in our industry that we can't yet see, but which might be around the corner.

Geoff Skingsley:
By the time we came back, I think there was a collective spirit amongst the executive group to say, okay, we now know what it might look like. We have to lead this process. We have to take charge, led by the CEO and the CDO, this person who'd been appointed to the executive committee. And we then had a whole organisational plan that was laid out and cascaded down the organisation.

Adam Canwell:
I guess there's one step which is immerse yourself as a top team facing [inaudible 00:08:02] I love the go to the place that's at the cutting edge of the disruption that's impacting on every organisation across the world. I've spent time in Silicon Valley AND when you really see how disruptive they're going to go, it really challenges you to think differently. How do you then start to translate that into understanding and belief across the organisation that people really get where you're going to be going as an organisation and that it's going to be different, not just the exec team feel that, but you cascade that across the whole organisation.

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I suppose the two things I would point to is, firstly, in terms of resource, we bought in quite a lot of people from outside who were already digital experts and we planted them in key parts of the organisation. And this is in a company where a great deal of the growth in management comes from within, I mean, it's been a strength. And therefore it's quite unusual to see quite a body of people coming from outside and be inserted into quite influential places inside the organisation.

Geoff Skingsley:
The second one really was, I think, to establish some KPIs that were very public internal KPIs about this is the future looks like, this is what you need to try and hit on a five year timeframe. Quite ambitious KPIs and very different from any KPIs that we'd been used to having before. And then say to the organisation, okay, this is where we want to get to, it's going to look quite different from where we are now. We're bringing in some extra resource to keep parts of the organisation, but we need everybody to be on the journey. It's not as if it's only these new people who are going to do it, everybody has to do it. But the new people are part of the resource that will enable us to get there quickly.

Andrew White:
One of the phrases that I have used is this concept of turning points. It sounds to me that this was a critical turning point from a very successful status quo, recognising that it had limited runway into the future, and how do you kind of turn things up. So it's like success building on success and then cascading out that sense of belief, the KPIs, the process, that goes on from there. I mean, when you did that, were there certain skills, we often try to use this word superpower to kind of be a bit provocative, were there individuals that really excelled at this whole process? If they did, what were they doing? Was there a superpower in here where you saw certain people, perhaps not the new ones coming in but the existing ones who really got stuff. Where there things that they did that really allowed them to move very quickly into that future state?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I think the first thing you'd have to say is the CEO, because he was galvanising the organisation in a position, obviously of great authority. So he was making sure that the organisation moved. And then you have a few key individuals who got it quickly because not everybody did get the scale and speed, not everybody got it at the same pace. And they were two or three people in the organisation who suddenly thought, I'm going to drive this in my part of the organisation. So it started with the CEO, I think clearly, there was the CDO who was the sort of brains behind the more technical aspects of how do you make digital work. But then operationally you had just two or three people who in their division or geography were saying we're going to make this happen.

Geoff Skingsley:
So there's quite a bit of internal emulation. You see one part of the organisation, one division or one brand, which is really moving quite fast and you think, whoa, okay, so this can be done. I think the internal emulation point was quite important.

Adam Canwell:
In what you're saying, your constantly infusing new capability into the organisation, people who know digital, people who've done it before, people who can shift. You are demonstrating commitment in terms of we're going to make it shifting incentives, KPIs, shifting towards the future way of working, holding up examples of when people have been successful. So there's a lot of positive reinforcement, but I would imagine on a shift like this, there would also be a high degree of stress, of anxiety, you're shifting power within the organisation, as you go digital first. Did you have a way of understanding that stress and that anxiety across the organisation? Were you aware of problem spots and where you might need to lean in as a leadership group to keep the transformation moving forward?

Geoff Skingsley:
Correct one thing you said there, Adam, I don't think we were trying to shift power. I think we were trying to leave power where it was, but get the occupants of those positions to understand they're there because of the organisation is going to have to act differently. So, nobody was having power taken away from them. They were keeping exactly the same authority and ability to perform that they had before, they were just being asked to do it in a different way. So the challenge was, I think, different. It was, firstly, it was a successful business and you had to keep the current successful machine running in fourth gear, full power, you didn't want the machine to stop. So you had to keep doing what you were anyway doing and do it well. And alongside that, you had to develop the digital capability so that the point in the distance, the two would merge together and it would be one plus one equals three. But you couldn't take your hand off the steering wheel of the current business.

Geoff Skingsley:
I think the other form of potential stress would be one of the sort of impacts of having these new people come in, because quite a lot of them were 20 years younger than the people at the top who had the steering wheels, I include myself in that. So you are being asked to sort of take on board, somebody who is maybe in their early 30s and give them quite a key role in determining how a certain thing might be done. So you've got to make sure that the organisation accepts the validity of that. Understandably there may various points have been a certain amount of resistance, but that was where it was absolutely key that the top team understood the end goal. Again, the Silicon Valley's trip, which is sort of said to everybody, look, we can't hang around with this. If there was any hesitancy, if that hesitancy was percolated upwards, then the guys at the top would saying, no, no, no, this is absolutely right. This is the way we need to go.

Andrew White:
In terms of, I guess, you're starting to see the fruits of this. I'm particularly thinking, did it help you get through COVID in any way? Because what we saw in COVID was a lot of organisations who perhaps hadn't done what you'd done have to move very quickly, and in some ways we're late to market with certain things and didn't get their house in order. Had it prepared you for that period when so much of the world became dependent on digital interventions as opposed to face to face or the, let's call it, a more 20th century way of working?

Geoff Skingsley:
Absolutely. I mean, not of course that we knew that COVID was coming, I mean, COVID took everybody by surprise and it had management challenges of its own. But in a particular space of the change in consumer behaviour and in the change of how commerce got done under the lockdowns of COVID, then yes, we were much more ready than if we hadn't embarked on this transformation. So, the market was moving anyway, society was moving anyway, what COVID did for all sorts of reasons that none of us saw coming, but which just unfolded in front of us. Society changed. The nature of commerce changed. And we were much, much more ready to take advantage of that, to just be able to operate smoothly, comfortably in this new set of parameters.

Geoff Skingsley:
As a result, the business was very successful. I mean, we wouldn't hide from the fact that from in purely commercial terms we came out of COVID very strongly. I mean, there was other management challenges about how you manage with people who have COVID and I wouldn't in any way want to diminish those, but in pure operational terms we were very well prepared.

Adam Canwell:
Looking back on it now, Geoff, if you were talking to another leader who was about to embark on a significant transformation programme, what would be the lesson you'd most want to impart on them? What would you want to give them as a wise piece of advice having been through a transformation process?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I do think that there has to be a couple of things that show that this is not business as usual. I mean, I mentioned the examples with L'Oreal, other organisations might have their own ones. But I think if the top team is going to understand that this is about a transformation, then the method used to sort of kickstart it, I think, needs to be not the normal mode of operation. It does bring the challenge that you've got to keep the wheels turning on the current business. But I think you need to do some things that symbolically and very sort of unmistakably say, what we are about to ask you to do is not business as usual, it's a step change, it's something different.

Geoff Skingsley:
And then there's no doubt in my mind that getting the buy-in of the top team, the really comprehensive conviction of the top team was important because as you encounter various forms of resistance or maybe inertia in other parts of the organisation, you can be sure that the top team are going to be in there to sort it out.

Andrew White:
It's super interesting what you're saying in terms of so much of this is reliant on the front end, on the top team, on that disconnection from the status quo of being able to see what the vision, cascade that belief across the organisation, put in place, in a sense, the rules of the game, that if things get escalated the top team stay firm. There's something about if that group can't get it right then despite the good efforts of the rest of the organisation, it's not going to work. And we often see that in other places where things fail.

Geoff Skingsley:
Equally, I think you don't want to overdramatize it so much that people can't do their day job. I mean, again, we were a successful machine. We had to keep the machine turning. So we had to say, nobody is belittling what you are currently doing. We're just saying, think about how you're going to have to do it in the future and it will look quite different from how you're doing it now.

Adam Canwell:
I like that because you were thinking out almost ahead of the disruption you could frame it in a very positive way. This isn't reacting to something we've got to kind of let go of or stop, this is adding new capability on top that allows us to perform in a new environment. So you keep people in a functional, positive mindset because of that. Like you say, it's not a fundamental shift of power, it's actually just improving the capability that you've got within the business.

Geoff Skingsley:
Yes.

Adam Canwell:
Geoff, as you're going through this you've got the kind of constituency of the organisation, so obviously as you and Andrew are saying, get the top team aligned, get the top team really believing in this, move that out into the organisation to build belief. How much attention were you also paying to other stakeholders around it? I'm thinking shareholders, the board, other people. Because obviously as you're trying to manage business of today while investing in business, so tomorrow there's wider stakeholders you've got to keep believing in the transformation effort beyond just the organisation itself. How much of the time of the top team was taken up thinking about stakeholders outside the organisation?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I mean, an obvious group of stakeholders are people like retail partners. So you had to carry on doing good business with the retail partners, help them see what's coming around the corner, say to them, we can be your partner in seeing this change coming. So we're not only helping ourselves adapt and anticipate, but we can help you adapt and anticipate. And then there will be new retail partners. I mean, I don't need to name names, we know what we're talking about here, but there will be new actors who will come in and we need to be also seen by those new actors as an established player, but one who is very open to the potential of what the new players can bring. So, you have to keep your current partners successful and at the same time develop the new partners who are going to be part of what the market will become.

Andrew White:
You're very much stepping up into almost leading at the level of the system. Yes, you've got to run things in the company, but there's a system role here or an industry role across multiple actors as well.

Geoff Skingsley:
Yeah. I mean to Adam's question, I mean, people like the board and the shareholders, I think basically there was a trust in management that said the case has been made, it's the right case, we will back it. So I don't think that was in any way problematic. I think we just had to make sure that the organisation could move at the speed that the top team wanted and that we brought our partners with us.

Andrew White:
Is there a legacy here in terms of this started in, I think you said about 2000 and...

Geoff Skingsley:
'13, '14, yes.

Andrew White:
Yeah. So we're fast forwarding almost 10 years. What we know with digital technologies is that they empower more people, they cast decisions down, it's more self-service, you've got all of these things going on. So has it changed the organisation, the culture of the organisation, in ways that perhaps you didn't expect at the time when you started the journey?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I think it probably reinforced one of the underlying values that the company had, which, I mean, for anybody speaking French as an expression, saisir ce qui commence, which basically means seize what is just starting. That's always been a light motif in the company, but this was a really large demonstration that it's important and that we can do it. So I think it was a good culture reinforcement factor that what we've always believed to be important, we had been able to do on a scale that hadn't been done for, I guess, a generation. So that was a very positive byproduct probably of this.

Geoff Skingsley:
It just makes people comfortable as the market changes around us, and there's no question that the market and society is changing around us. I think it just gives a level of confidence to people in the organisation that we are more than coping with this, that we were very comfortable operating as this environment changes in front of our eyes.

Andrew White:
So it's almost like, we talk about success, begetting success or transformation, begetting transformation, that if you can do this it leaves a legacy beyond the programme. If you get it well that spurs you on to the next programme. Conversely, if it doesn't go well then the absence of that belief can put people in quite a difficult place. And it sounds it's very much was on the positive side, it builds our confidence, builds our insight that we can operate in this new world that we're moving into.

Geoff Skingsley:
Yes. But it wasn't simple. I go back to the point about internal emulation. I mean, moving a big organisation speedily to a new place. There were leaders and laggards and you just had to make sure that the laggards understood by looking around them that, come on guys, we're going to get left behind here. So, I wouldn't want to try and make out it was utterly smooth, but you just had to make sure that you maintained the positive spirit and you just used the people who were getting there quickly to inspire the others who maybe were not quite as quick. I mean, I would put myself in the camp of those that wasn't one of the leaders. I mean, there were people around me I was thinking, crikey, he's really moving fast. And that sort of galvanised you to say we've got to keep going, keep the pace up.

Adam Canwell:
Because you almost tapped into a core identity of the organisation as an accelerator at the transformation. That you are an organisation who is looking to use the disruptions in the market to jump ahead, and that's part of the core identity of who L'Oreal have been. So by tapping into that you've reinforced it and now turn it into a competitive advantage for the organisation going forward as well. So, there's quite a beautiful use of the historical basis of who you are as an organisation to make the transformation work effectively.

Geoff Skingsley:
Yeah. I think every leader in every sector always has the risk of complacency because you are leading in your sector and you think not job done but you think I know what I'm doing and I'm doing it right. So you've got to have something inside the culture that says, even if you're the leader, you've got to maintain that inquisitiveness and that slight sense of nervousness to fight the complacency. Hence this idea of seizing what's just starting out to say, just because it worked yesterday doesn't mean it'll work tomorrow. So you've got to try and keep the culture of an organisation that is successful to say, okay, but that success involves keeping an eye on what's coming around the corner, seeing it coming, anticipating it and being there first.

Andrew White:
So I think we're coming to towards the end, Geoff, just one last question for me and then I'll hand back to Adam. We are conscious that all our questions might not be comprehensive, is there anything we should have asked you, but we didn't ask you to really capture the learning that came out of this time, of this period of transformation?

Geoff Skingsley:
No, I will just reiterate probably that when we set out on this journey, we didn't have a burning platform. If we hadn't set out when we did then five years later it may well have been a burning platform. So this sense of anticipation, which started in this example with the CEO but which very quickly percolated through the organisation is what stopped it potentially becoming a burning platform. So the earlier you spot the threat or the opportunity, however you want to phrase it, then the better equipped you will be to sort of take it on.

Andrew White:
Yeah. It's almost pivoting off the success as opposed to waiting for things, to get difficult when it's much harder to change. You've got analysts crawling all over you. You've got the press writing about you. We all know the companies that get into those places. If you can do it as you are describing where you pivot off that success, I think you've got a much greater preexisting momentum to take you somewhere. And then you get down into things like cash and all these other things, there's much more resource to deploy into things when you're in that place of success. So, thank you for me. Adam, anything else you want to add before we close?

Adam Canwell:
Just maybe one final question, because what I love Geoff in your description of the process within the organisation is of different business units or different divisions, looking at each other and being challenged to perform because of what others were doing, but also learning from each other. I think that's a delicate space to architect, so it doesn't become hyper competition and poor for the organisation. It becomes one where we're challenged by the performance of others, but we can learn from it. Are there any learnings as to how you turn that into a learning environment so that people do learn from each other?

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, there was another aspect to the learning question, which I haven't touched on, but which in fact your question has reminded me, which is the top team who by and large were executives in their late 40s through to late 50s, had to get into a mindset that said I individually will have to learn from people 20 years younger than me who are digital natives and who just know what's happening because they're at the leading age of how it's happening in society. And so at least in this area, you have to invert the idea that the senior people have the expertise and they impart the expertise downwards to saying the senior people need to acquire a new expertise and it's imparted upwards from more junior people. So that was a learning journey that we all had to go through, which once it was achieved was very positive for the organisation. But again, it was a bit of a shift. It was saying, okay, just because you've worked here for 25 years and you've done a good job, doesn't mean to say you don't need to be continually learning, and sometimes you might have to learn from somebody who's 25 years younger than you in order to be able to do your job better next year, sort of thing.

Adam Canwell:
I love that. I think it brings to life at the heart of transformation is learning. It is about learning our ways into new ways of working, thinking, believing.

Geoff Skingsley:
And recognising that the source of that learning might be different.

Adam Canwell:
Yeah.

Andrew White:
You need the humility to do that, to recognise that sometimes the normal hierarchies or the normal maturity you go through doesn't work. And actually, as you said Geoff, you have to invert things. Presumably through things like mentoring or reverse mentoring and things like that.

Geoff Skingsley:
Yes reverse mentoring arrived in the organisation that way.

Andrew White:
So Geoff, can I just say, thank you. Thank you for what you brought to the research and thank you for all the leadership that you and colleagues at L'Oreal are showing to the world. So it's been great to be with you.

Geoff Skingsley:
Well, I hope we can carry on this partnership in the future. Thanks.

Andrew White:
So Adam, another great interview. I thought Geoff was brilliant, really brought to life so many of the concepts, the ideas that we're seeing coming through from the research.

Adam Canwell:
Yeah. I kind of think there are two things that sit with me. One is if you can, as an organisation, lean into the longer term, you can be so much more creative and you take away so much of the anxiety. So truly looking long term to disrupt becomes quite key. Which is a really confident thing to do. But coupled with that was also, and I think you said it, this humility of openness and learning. This kind of hyper confidence to be able to disrupt but coupled with a humility and a listening so you can learn, really struck me. They kind of juxtapose against each other in a way, don't they?

Andrew White:
Yeah, they are. And I think something's changed out there. When I think about all the case studies we looked at in the '90s and the 2000s, it was companies that were so embedded in their status quo they couldn't see change coming and couldn't adapt to that change. I'm thinking companies like Polaroid and Kodak and others and yet this seems to be different. And I wonder if there's so much disruption happening now that you can't ignore it, you have to lean into it. But then I think what's probably rarer is the humility to say, I don't have the answers. And then the skill of that CEO to take that senior leadership team to Silicon Valley, which in some ways sounds easy in hindsight but I can imagine getting all those people to cancel their diaries all at the same time, finding a slot in the corporate timetable to do that, lining up all those meetings. And then also I'd love to have been a fly on the wall in actually seeing the changes in them as they realised their world was going to change. So much was dependent on that meeting, I think that's what came through for me listening to Geoff.

Adam Canwell:
Yeah. it's a description of a more organic co-creation process rather than just an imposed top down process. And even moving out to having a view of the ecosystem that you've got to re-architect or re-navigate, thinking outside the organisational boundaries became really quite important to them as well as what's within the organisation boundary. So it's quite an interesting view of system that they all started develop in their minds.

Andrew White:
But also internally, I mean, some departments seem to get it, others not so quick and how do you take a complex, big organisation like L'Oreal through this kind of change? I thought it was super interesting, you bring a younger chief digital officer, the CDO, right in the exec, which can be disruptive but in a very positive sense. How do you bring new people into the organisation, in an organisation that's, I think he suggested it, had developed a lot of its own talent. So although those fresh ideas that are brought in. I just love the reverse mentoring, the humility, the insight to know that the answers are not going to lie neatly aligned with the existing hierarchy.

Adam Canwell:
Yeah. Yeah. You could see which I've heard you say that the organisation through leaning into this and embracing the transformation agenda, success begets success. They're an organisation now that is well set up to lean into the next disruption. And the disruption beyond that and use disruption as a positive force for organisational kind of learning and organisational transformation.

Andrew White:
Yeah. It's like transformation as a muscle, and the more you use it, the more confident that you get in its ability. These time bounded transformation projects, they don't actually, I don't think really exist. We might think we finish, but the cultural implications, the legacy, both positive and negative on the organisation spill over or move beyond some of those boundaries where we think we've come to a point of completion. So it was a great interview. So grateful to Geoff, really insightful.

Adam Canwell:
Absolutely.

Andrew White:
You've been listening to a special transformation addition of Leadership 2050 with me, Andrew White, and Adam Canwell from EY. You can catch up with all our episodes from the Leadership 2050 series wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, why not subscribe so you'll never miss an episode and help others find us by taking a moment to give us a rating and review. If you'd like to hear more podcasts from Said Business School exploring leadership and how the business world is re-imagining the future, please visit OxfordAnswers.org. Leadership 2050 is a podcast from Said Business School at the University of Oxford. The producer is Eve Streeter. Original music is by Cy Beck and our executive producer is David McGuire for Stable Productions.

Andrew White:
In the next episode, we'll be talking to Christiane Wijsen, head of corporate strategy and consulting at Boehringer Ingelheim. Until then, many thanks for listening.