Andrew White: Hello, my name is Andrew White and welcome to this episode of The Leadership 2050 Podcast, where I'm with my guest host, Adam Canwell from EY. Adam, it's great to have you here. Adam Canwell: Hey, Andrew. Good to be here. I know as we've done this research together over the past year, we've had the honour, the privilege to speak to many leaders from lots of different organisations facing different transformation challenges. And I know when you did this initial interview, you were really taken with this approach to transformation, the transformation challenge that this leader was facing into. What was it that really sparked your interest that made you really want to dive deep into this in one of our podcasts? Andrew White: Well, as you say, Adam, we met a number of people and Christiane Wijsen from Boehringer Ingelheim, who's the chief strategy officer there, really stood out for me. She was so eloquent about the social movement that you need to create to make a transformation happen. And the skills, the deep listening, just such an interesting story. Adam Canwell: Yeah, I think it's that at the heart of everything that we found as we've looked at this together, is this, how do you create almost an organic movement across a large population so that people are working together through tough, difficult times, pushing forward on shared belief and the exploration of what is the role of leader being somebody who's creating a movement I think is a really important exploration as we look at this. Andrew White: Yeah, and I think it's leaders make such a pivotal impact on whether things go well or whether things don't go well. Whether that transformation leaves a positive legacy or a negative legacy. And so really demystifying that, decoding that and understanding that is what I think Christiane gives us a deep insight into. Andrew White: So Christian, can I first of all, thank you for being with us. Thank you for your time. Can I kick you off with a kind of a big question? What does transformation mean for you? What does it mean in Boehringer Ingelheim? How does it come through, and how does it manifest itself, particularly in these kind of complex and disruptive times? Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me, and an exciting topic. I look forward to our conversation indeed. Transformation in our organisation, I'm heading the corporate strategy division and overlooking everything that happens in our company. And in those times that, yeah, I don't have to repeat it, everybody knows that the environment is changing around us. We have big events in the world. Transformation is so present. And if I look at the plans that we have, our strategic plans, it's filtered into so many topics that we have. So, it's really impacting heavily I think what we are doing currently in the business. So very, very important and present everywhere, I would say. So I think for us getting really great in rolling out those transformations is key for any business nowadays. Andrew White: So if I could take you back, and just think about recent transformation programmes. In what areas has this external disruption, how has it kind of hit the organisation in terms of specific programmes, specific transformation activities that have happened? Christiane Wijsen: Now, we think about, if you say recent, big transformations that I've been part in or leading. I seek to really, popping up in my mind immediately is one when I was heading a country organisation. So at a country setting with my leadership team we had to reorganise the whole country setup in a way. So it was an organisation with about 500 employees. And we had to transform it into an organisation of about 300. So you see already a lot of people having to leave the organisation. And the one that stayed, a lot of them had to change their roles or learn new capabilities. So that's a quite massive transformation, I would say. And then the other one of course, when I was three months in my first corporate role at headquarters, leading a division that also hosted corporate crisis. And at that three months after I was onboarded on the role, there was this virus popping up. And yeah, my corporate crisis, part of that division became of course, very important. Christiane Wijsen: So I've been heading down with my division the corporate crisis team for Corona, which was, I would say that's a series of transformations. Because that was an ongoing for two years. I hosted that. And that was an ongoing series of transformations. Very, very insightful, very impactful. And I learned a lot from those. That will stay in my mind, I think, quite long. Adam Canwell: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And when you look at the transformation programmes you've been involved in, what do you think is at the heart of getting it right? What is it that you need to lean into to create the successful conditions for transformation to succeed? Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, I think the thing that pops up for me, where I try always to go to is being very clear about the why. Why are you doing that? If you cannot explain the why, as certainly in difficult transformations, if I talk about this country reorganisation, if you're not clear, even in your own, why, certainly when you let go so many people. Why are you doing that? That has to be really clear. I think that's my starting point. The how, okay. But really, "Why am I doing this?" And being able to translate that and to bring that to the organisation. And then the second thing for me is, creating a community around you. First, probably with a small leadership team as it often goes. But then being able to extend that to the broader organisation and creating kind of movement, I would say, or togetherness, to do it together. I think that's for me, I would say the two success factors or the things that would drive me and keep me on track. Adam Canwell: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because at the heart of the research, what you've just articulate comes through so clearly. If we can be part of a movement that we truly believe in, we'll go so much further. Don't tell me the financial target. Tell me the thing that I'm going to believe in. Or maybe some people will be fired up by financial targets, but it's actually, how do we do the hard work of translating direction into the why and the belief system. That really takes people with you, both the leadership group and the workforce across the organisation. And you can just do so much more together, can't you? It's the bedrock of trust and belief that takes you there. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, absolutely. I think we are human beings, right? So you should never forget it, even how hard it is. And often those transformations, we are talking about now, I guess it's not the easy ones that go easily. But it's the ones, like the ones I describe where there's a lot of pressure. Often it's also not such a positive story. It's often when we do business transformations, you have the really find ones where you go into innovation and people like it. Automatically I would say they're inspired, but I think it's more interesting here also to talk about the hard ones. And how do you get people behind? If I describe this plan in this country where you announce that you will reorg the organisation going from 500 to 300 employees. It is not something where people immediately say, "Yeah, let's go together." And still you need this togetherness and this community to make it happen in a good way. So, that's challenging. Andrew White: What I find interesting about this is that so much of the idea around a movement like this doesn't come from business. It comes from the big social movements we've seen in different parts of the world. And really leaders in that, when we look at the literature there, they only have about two or three things. One is they have their purpose what they believe in. They communicate to followers. They have the purpose of the followers and what the followers believe in. And what you're talking about is almost if the right hand is the dominant skillset of the executive of the last 30 years. So finance and hierarchy, and how you get the stuff done through project management. This is almost the non-dominant hand. Andrew White: This is another set of skills that we're looking at, which is hearts and minds. It's about listening to emotions, being with emotions, pace and patience. And all of these things, it's a really interesting thing. And it's coming through, as Adam says, it's coming through so strongly in our research time after time, different industries, different geographies, people are talking about this as opposed to the tech being difficult. Or the project management being difficult. And in a sense many of those things, I'm not saying they're not difficult, but they, perhaps they are easier to sort. This is where the real edge is and where if you can get it right, it's where the real upside is. Christiane Wijsen: I couldn't agree more. And I'm happy to hear that because I'm not an academic, I'm a hands-on business leader. But absolutely I couldn't agree more. I would say on every of those transformations the issues also is not that much on the brainy side of it, the techy side, those are the things you can also prepare very well, numbers, technical, frameworks, et cetera. But where it goes wrong. If it goes wrong, it is on this emotional side, on people don't buy into it. People don't want to do it. And to turn this into, yes, this community, this movement, this idea of together we will be strong, we'll do it together. I think that's when you really feel that you can move really important things. And yeah, absolutely. Really, Andrew, I couldn't agree more. Adam Canwell: One of the things that we've been interested in, like you were saying, the vast majority of transformations go through quite tough times. Pressure really goes up. It becomes much more difficult than people anticipate. You can see the kind of dip as pressure goes up and people are finding it quite a struggle. It's quite interesting, because I actually think what you start to see is actually that's a really important part of the transformation process. That actually you have to go through a high-pressured environment to be able to move into a learning zone, to be able to perform in a different way, to stretch into the pieces that will make the transformation real. But I think that puts a challenge into what do leaders do to help people through that. Adam Canwell: Both themselves, but also the workforce. How are you aware of where the workforce is really at? What more you need to do. But then what are the things you do both to keep yourself kind of on the tracks as you go through it, but also keep the workforce. And does that resonate, Christiane? Because I think there's a leadership skill there about keeping it at the right space of enough pressure, but people still performing. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think there's two things there that come to my mind is indeed keeping really good connection with like Andrew would say the followers. That at this time are often not followers. They might even hate your projects. So you have to get them into followers at some point in time, even if it's difficult. Putting a purpose out, a common goal that we can reach that is inspiring and then bringing them along. So it's a lot about communication. I think when I have seen things going wrong, also for myself, it's probably when there was not enough communication. And really being close to the organisation. I think about one moment where I felt it was not really easy. Of course, again, I come back to this country reorganisation where, when I had to announce it this moment where you prepare all of this first of course, certainly such a transformation. It's first you prepare with a leadership team, a small team because you cannot go out before its well prepared. But then you have to make this connection to this broader organisation that will be impacted. Christiane Wijsen: When I had to announce it. Of course, you can imagine I was, yeah, that's a communication too, but that's a very difficult one in front of the workers council announcing such a plan. I can, of course, and I think that's where you are also human as a leader, right? It is not you're excited about announcing this. In a way yes, because you want to make the organisation more future proof, it's necessary for the future. But before you get there, you need to go in rough times. So communication is really important. But at that moment, of course, you announce that it was stressful for all parties. And that's easy to talk about connection and inspiration, but at that, really at that moment that's not what of course is right in the room when you announce that. Christiane Wijsen: And I think when we got up and running again was when, and this was really amazing, I will never forget it. Some workers, council members ... The dog there, right. He wanted to be part of it, the community. Very good. What I was saying is. So communication and the importance of keeping that connection, I think what really was amazing when then workers council, some two, three members reached out to me and they asked, "Can we have a talk, really a quiet talk with you?" And that this connection happened because then they expressed, "Christiane, we, of course this is a shock. It's a very difficult transformation, et cetera. But we just want to express that we respect you as a leader. And we know that this is also for you very difficult. And we respect you as a person. And we just want to share that. Because we can imagine how difficult this is for you." Christiane Wijsen: I think that was the basis where yes, even in those difficult times you feel trust, you feel connection. And then in this room we said, "We'll find solutions together. So you can count on me. I will do it. We will do it together the right way." And at that time, then you feel like it's the kind of turning point where you get to, again, a small connection, this little community together. Andrew White: And it's so interesting. What I'd like to do is just unpack the word communication. Because it's a big word. It's used a lot. On the one hand it can mean me standing up making a speech. And in a sense projecting my view onto others. And at the other extreme, it can mean me listening, deeply listening to what's said, to what's unsaid, to giving space for emotion. And giving space for people themselves to explore, almost coaching like in a sense. Where do you see, I mean, do you see a different set of skills across that continuum? Is it leaning more towards one end or another? Could you add just a little bit? What's the real key skill here if we have to pull this out and describe it, that's necessary? Christiane Wijsen: Ah, it's such a good question. I love it because it's absolutely, I always say it's key. Very different types of communication. Again, if I take the example of the pandemic. When we set up the corporate crisis team, cross functional team, it's communication in this team first, getting that really to a high performing team very quickly, certainly with that crisis ahead. And then it's communication. I would say for me from very large, if you say this is a 50,000 employee organisation. So very complicated, this crisis is popping up at everywhere. So, at some point we ask the CEO and the executive team to come up with communications, video communications to the whole audience, very formal, but also trying even with this communication to touch a bit the heart of our employees very important. And everybody saw how the CEO and the executive team were connected and caring about the safety of our employees. Making sure that our medications still got to the patients who needed them, et cetera. Christiane Wijsen: So this high, broad communication. And then the other, I would say end of the spectrum is indeed one, two on individual communications, listening, hearing low noises in the organisation of people not feeling well, having questions. And detecting what really are still maybe the things that we needed to fix and picking up by listening well those low signals of people, the true worries, and bringing that together again to them again on broader communication. So you need, I think really very good emotional intelligence. You need those inspiring communication skills to address a big audience. But you also need those fine listening skills and opening up in this psychological safe environment where people can speak up safely, talk about their worries, and you need really both. And then indeed this group of leaders that can bringing them back all together to manage next steps. Adam Canwell: The process of transformation you articulate is such a deeply human one, isn't it? It's creating a belief system and then genuinely talking together as to how we take it forward as in authentic a way as we possibly can. Because you said part of this was transformation during the COVID time. I'm also my sense is that we found it easier to bring the human being into the workplace because of COVID. Because we've all sat in each other's front rooms and seen each other's kids and dogs. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, I just heard your dog. Can you imagine this would have happened before COVID? I would say like, "Let's stop the recording. We have to start again. Because there was a dog." Andrew White: The real question we all have, Adam is not about transformation is, what's the name of the dog? Adam Canwell: Snoopy, and he's very loud, but I do wonder whether we've taken ourselves into a different space where transformation will have a different depth because of what we've just been through. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, I can hope that. And that's maybe what I see, absolutely. It's such a good point where ... There is again your dog, right? I agree that we have been forced to talk together about very difficult topics. And if there is a good thing about this pandemic, yes, I can really see it, honestly to see it. It makes us speaking more easily because it was impossible to find solutions alone. We also had this, so I did set up then quickly, for example, twice a month calls with all country leaders where we all came together very regularly and it was truly crisis or crisis helped us, I think, to learn about transformation and implementing changes quickly with open communication and conversations. Also online, connecting very quickly and it's pushed us a bit to be more open and picking up quickly because we had no time to lose. Christiane Wijsen: So, and then creating this space where we were all a bit in misery together. This was also where you say everybody is in this crazy situation and let's just to hold strong. We need to stick together, open up, speak and get closer to each other. Yes, I think this has definitely helped us, I can see that. And also the fact that we learned, I think in this digital communications, if I come back to the beginning of the crisis. I think when we sent all people overnight home in home office, it was a big transformation. And enormous disruption where normally you would have prepared it for two years before you do this plan. So now we just decided it one day and the other day we send out a communication, like everybody going home, it's, if you think about, that's amazing, we just did it. Christiane Wijsen: The first days, or I think maybe you also had that the first, even weeks we didn't use our cameras. We were just listening to each other because we felt uncomfortable. It was a disruption, a big transformation. And then we opened up a bit. We started using our cameras, getting more used to each other and we ended, I think, absolutely, Adam to what you say of being able to really connect on screen. The two of you, I don't know you, I feel very comfortable now speaking to you and connecting quickly and becoming more personal. And I think that's a good thing. If there's anything good about this period, let that be the one that we find each other more quickly, we open up, we see each other as human beings. And then you get to really deep right purpose. Like, why are we here? What's the purpose of us being in this environment? And in my division now I'm hosting, in our current division corporate strategy, culture and sustainability is linking, I think all together. That's really, I think the deeper sense of it. Yes, absolutely. Andrew White: One of the things we want to put all of what you're talking about into is, what does the process look like? Because we know that all of this doesn't fit into a nice, neat project plan. Adam and I have wrestled with this, what's the metaphor. We can't quite find it, because it has ups, it has downs, it has forwards, it has backwards. It has acceleration, it has breaking. Have you thought about, when you step back and look at the process you followed from the point of completion, is there a way you'd describe it? Is there a metaphor that comes to mind? Is there just some words that describe the way in which these things evolve? Christiane Wijsen: The metaphor, I'm a sailor. I didn't say that. Yeah, but I'm a sailor, so the metaphor is absolutely for me. I'm in love with sailing metaphors. But here, I think it really is a good one to see that the captain on the ship, I don't know if you have been sailing, but you prepare very well. I'm not a captain, my husband is the captain. I'm just executing orders there. So that's also a very good training for any business leader. I can recommend that one. I'm a bit worried if the weather, if there's too much wind, I would say, "Can we not stay in the harbour?" Where he would say, "No, Christiane we'll go out. And I have some destiny in mind." Where I say, "Not sure, can we wait a little bit longer?" So I think that metaphor holds well while there is a lot of preparation he's doing that in the back, looking at the weather forecast, preparing the ship well, et cetera. Christiane Wijsen: Myself, my two kids who are far better sailors too than I am. So then there is a briefing. We all get a bit the instructions, but also it's like the team bonding together. And then when you go out, it can be very unpredictable. You can get into ... We got into storm. And then you have to be agile. You have to adapt and you have no choice. You have to keep the morale. You cannot get out of it. You're on the ship. And certainly when there is a storm, you need everybody. So this captain needs to be able to keep morale up, keep this team spirit up, avoid panic, making sure that mommy on board is not stressing out and still functioning. So the metaphor of sailing, I think, is one that is working for me, of course, very well. Adam Canwell: I'll tell you what, Christiane. What I love about that is we have been struggling with this for at least six months. And failing, and you've absolutely just nailed it. But what's also quite funny is Andrew is a sailor. Christiane Wijsen: No. Adam Canwell: And- Andrew White: I am, yes. Adam Canwell: And he didn't come up with this analogy at all. He's just come up with cork screws, I think that's because he likes wine. He's totally missed the same. Christiane Wijsen: It's incredible. Adam Canwell: But it is fascinating as you speak. Because there's every chance that you could go out and you could have perfect weather and the seas could be calm and you could have wind behind you and you could sail straight through and get there much quicker than you expected. I mean, that's a possibility. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah. Adam Canwell: But to the same extent you could go out with entirely the wrong gear and hit some really horrible conditions and get into a lot of trouble. And it's that uncertainty and complexity of what you're facing it. And then the need to shift, adapt, deal with that will rarely be a linear A to B plain sailing. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, Andrew. So I didn't know you are a sailor. This is really funny. Andrew White: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Christiane Wijsen: And what do you think about the metaphor, Andrew? Andrew White: I think you're absolutely right. And Adam's right. I missed the very thing that was right in front of me. It's such a good example because it's such an intense, explicit way of thinking. And you're right, there's a whole load of unpredictable things. Particularly when you take people out who haven't sailed before. Some people absolutely fly. Some people go down with seasickness, and as you know, that's totally unpredictable. You can go out one day and you don't get seasick. You go out the next day in better conditions and you get seasick. Some people love it. Sometimes the dolphins turn up and that lifts everybody's spirit. But that's totally unpredictable. And then you've got tide in there. You've got unpredictable weather and then you can get all kinds of weather as you know, in one day. Andrew White: That's the thing about sailing in Northern Europe. You start off and it's sunny. You get storm over lunch time and then the wind drops to pretty much zero in the afternoon and you have to put the engine on. So yeah, I think it's wonderful, Christiane, really, really interesting. We're coming towards the end of our time together. So, if I could just talk about one word, which we've dropped in and it's one of those questions, it's a little bit tricky, but actually we find it makes people stop and think. So we are using the word superpower. And what do we mean by that? Is there a transformation superpower that you've seen you use, which has really moved the needle? Perhaps surprised you in terms of the impact it's had, the way which accelerated transformation. Or a superpower you've seen others use. And you've seen them do things which have had, again, it's really moved the needle on performance. It's moved the needle on helping people move forward and helping that transformation happen. So what, is there a superpower or superpowers that you've seen? Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, I would say, I think Adam referred to that wording before. I would say superpower is head and heart, and maybe even with the accent on the heart. So for me it's absolutely, when I see great leaders doing great transformations in a good way, it's absolutely people with a smart brain. For sure you need to have the right plan and the IQ side of it and calculating it right, and et cetera. But it's definitely the ones that have a good EQ and a great heart and a true interest in people and caring for people. So I would say superpower is head and heart. And going with that is there is not one for me superhero in any transformations. It's not about one person, it's a super team and doing it together again. So, that would be where I would keep it. Adam Canwell: And Christiane, knowing what you know, having been through transformations, if you were talking to a new leader, what would be the most important thing you would want to share with them? What advice would you want to give them? Christiane Wijsen: It would be probably if I see one thing that's overlooked is this hard element to say, "Don't forget in any transformation you're dealing with human beings is the most important." You have to bring them along, listen to them, respect them, create trust. That's probably, if you do that right, things will work out. And that's the one which I also see that it's sometimes overlooked. Because it requires that as a leader, you open up, you also show vulnerability. You speak about the difficulty. So it's not all people are comfortable doing that. So it's a two-way street too. And that's really the advice that you have to also open up yourself. And really connect to the people that are with you in the transformation. Certainly when it's difficult. When it's an easy sailing trip, nice weather, everything is easy. When it gets rough, you have to speak to each other and find that true connection. So, that would be my advice. Adam Canwell: Invest in the crew. Christiane Wijsen: Absolutely. Adam Canwell: They're the only ones who are going to get through it, it's the obvious point is it. They are the only ones that are going to get through it. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah. And if they let you alone and Andrew, you know that, if you are alone as a captain on the ship, you're lost. Andrew White: Yes. Christiane Wijsen: You need those helping hands. You need people that support you, certainly when you are in rough time. So yes, that would be my advice. Andrew White: You're so right. I can remember coming across the English Channel, it was three o'clock in the morning. It had been a really difficult crossing. You could sense the whole crew were, it was dark. They were all looking down and I just looked across and thought, "This is when accidents happened." Christiane Wijsen: Yes. Andrew White: So I got people singing. I started singing songs that, trying to find songs that everybody knew. And I never knew what that phrase meant, "Holding on till dawn." Because as soon as the sun came up, everyone felt better. Someone put the kettle on, food started coming out, spirits lifted. But it was just that holding on. And it wasn't about the technical aspects of sailing. And do we put a reef in, do we take a reef out? Do we do this, do we, it was just keeping spirits up till the sun came and we moved on. So I'm conscious of time, couple more questions. How do you look after yourself as a leader? A lot of what you've been talking about is others, and how do you lead others through a transformation? But this takes a toll. So, do you have any insights into that? Christiane Wijsen: Yes, you have to take care of yourself. What helps me is building resilience, of course, in general. I think when you have those jobs, you need to be quite resilient anyways as a person. But then being surrounded by good people. And for example, when I had to do this announcement again. My husband drove me to work that morning, which was like, I have somebody even in the car that I don't need to drive alone. And get surrounded by people that care and can support you. And accept that help is normal that as a leader when you do these big things, that you also need to get some support for you. And supports, eating healthy, basic things, but don't overlook them. Certainly in the crisis I had, of course, a lot of crisis calls early morning, a lot of long days, long days. Stress, of course, this is not an easy ride. Christiane Wijsen: I think for anyone that was heading corporate crisis teams at that moment, it was a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty pressure. And yeah, take care of yourself, try to find things that can bring you some relief, relax you and consciously build that in the cause early in transformations that last. Like this pandemic, it was not a sprint, it was a marathon. So first we thought it would be a sprint. So we think, "Okay, I go all the way. I work very hard. And after two, three weeks, this will be over." And then we started seeing also in the crisis team, "Gee this will not go away." So, and then you start building in care for yourself, also for my team members that you really prepare for long duration. So sure, I think this is a very important one, which is sometimes overlooked, absolutely. Adam Canwell: Christiane, this has been absolutely wonderful. Very rich in terms of your experience and learnings you've gone through. Is there anything else, if you look back on transformations and getting them right, that we didn't ask you? The great interviewers catchall question, what did we miss? Christiane Wijsen: Okay. Probably we could anyways go on for hours on this topic. It's such an amazing, interesting topic and so important. And I also will, when we close the call, I will be thinking about so many things that I still wanted to share that did not get it to this call. But we can have other calls later on. A question I have when I think about this topic is, are there aspects to it that are timeless, or will those things change? So how will our kids do this transformation and lead transformations in 10, 20 years? Yeah, so prediction for the future, which could be a forecast of how this would evolve. Adam Canwell: Yeah, I wonder whether we're just on the cusp of finding a way of getting this more right. Because of this embracing of the whole human and bringing the human in. Andrew and I have spoken about this a couple of times, but one of the paradoxes that we kind of have spoken about a bit is, there's a piece of research that shows that one of the reasons that the human species is such a dominant species on the planet is actually the most adaptable species that the planet has ever seen. We can change our behaviour at scale to fit into new environments, without an underlying change in our DNA. We don't have to evolve. We can shift our behaviour so we don't have to grow extra hair or kind of adapt our body shape. Adam Canwell: We can create new tools, new clothing, we can live in any environment on the planet. So at our heart, as a species, we're the most adaptable species the planet has ever seen. And yet we all know that every organisation out there really struggles. Really struggles to get transformation to work, to get change to stick. So there's a kind of, there's quite a deep paradox there. And one of our thoughts on this of course, is that this is the edge. If we can actually find a way of bringing the whole human into the workplace and deliberately work together on building shared belief in something that we want to do together. Deliberately creating the conditions where people are psychologically safe, where as the pressure goes up, we use that as an accelerator to lean into doing things differently. That's at the heart of moving forward. And I think COVID has brought the human in every kind of step forward in society brings the human more into the workplace. Adam Canwell: So I wonder whether the gift of future leaders hopefully is to continue bringing the human in and then get greater success. And the complexity of the environment and everything we're facing into does require organisations to build a transformation muscle and the hope for the future generations as we get better at this. Christiane Wijsen: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think, and that's where I would predict that would remain, and I can hope that would remain eternally the basis of human beings being together on this planet. This hard thing, the brain probably with artificial intelligence and computers. And I don't know what can come. That part probably will evolve, but the heart core part and the emotional part, that's probably indeed what makes us so special. And I would predict that. And I could hope honestly, that, that human element and the human factor and that the heart piece of it, if we can call it like. That, that eternally would remain as it is. It's also probably the very rich thing about being together on this planet. Now we get really philosophical. But I would say that that's, I hope also for future generations something that stays and where human beings will continuously learn to stay close together in rough times. Christiane Wijsen: And then there will be the intellectual brain side of it that will evolve. But the heart, I would say also, that's probably what's been there also before us, but will stay for next generation. So head and heart with this heart being what keeps human being a human being. Andrew White: What a fantastic way to end. Adam, thank you for kicking us off with that. I thought we were about to come in and close, and then we just went up like an orchestra to a crescendo at the end. I was seeing a book almost being written between the two of you as we were speaking. Christiane, thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for the insights you've given us, and thank you for the leadership you're bringing. Thank you for all the good work that Boehringer Ingelheim's doing. It's been wonderful to have you with us today. Christiane Wijsen: Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure, so interesting. Thanks a lot. Adam Canwell: Andrew, I thought that was fascinating. Andrew White: It was a brilliant interview. Adam Canwell: I did love the fact that she gifted as a metaphor that you maybe should have noticed about six months ago. Andrew White: Perhaps more than six months, Adam. It was one of those things that was right in front of us or me. But it is true. I mean, it does bring together so much. It's such an intense experience. And it brings together so many different factors. I thought she was brilliant. I just thought her insight into what it means to lead the human journey of transformation. What it means to lead the emotion, coming back to the why. How humility and insight into her difficulty was for her. I think it just was such a rich insight into what it means to be a leader who leads transformation. Adam Canwell: And interestingly in a science-based technical organisation. Again, a bit like others that we've spoken to. They get that the perfect plan, the perfect thought through structure only gets you part of the way there, doesn't it? It's a small part of it. The big piece here is the human dimension. And how do we make it safe for people to come together to do something that's genuinely difficult? And therefore that investment upfront and throughout in creating the conditions for humans to work in a movement together to bring this to life, it comes across so clearly, doesn't it? Andrew White: It does. Adam Canwell: It's fascinating. Andrew White: Yeah, and I think, I mean, I don't know how to talk about the tech. Because it's not that it's unimportant, but it doesn't seem to be what's difficult. It doesn't seem to be what the edge is, what's consuming the attention of leaders. Adam Canwell: Well, if you take it into the metaphor, of course you've got to have a fighting fit boat. If you didn't have tech and a platform that was strong enough, absolutely you can't survive. But in and of itself, it's not enough. Andrew White: Yeah. Adam Canwell: The human dimension and the way that the teamwork together drives the survival in tough storm waters as well. And it's the combo of the two. It's neither in isolation of each other. But for so long we focus on, have we built the right boat? Not can our crew work together as the going gets really tough. And I think that's what comes through, doesn't it? Andrew White: Yeah. Adam Canwell: Because it's not an or, it's an and. It's just that people have treated it as an or rather than an and for quite a long time. Andrew White: Yeah. And I think, we've got a lot of investment into the tech. There's a lot of capabilities around the rational project planning in terms of software. This other stuff hasn't had that amount of money going into it. And I guess it's the known and the unknown. Yeah, I thought it was brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant interview, and very, very grateful to her for talking with the insight that she's got. Andrew White: You've been listening to a special transformation edition of Leadership 2050 with me, Andrew White and Adam Canwell from EY. You can catch up with all our episodes from The Leadership 2050 Series, wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, why not subscribe so you'll never miss an episode? And help others find us by taking a moment to give us a rating and review. And if you'd like to hear more podcasts from Saïd Business School, exploring leadership and how the business world is reimagining the future, please visit oxfordanswers.org. Andrew White: Leadership 2050 is a podcast from Saïd Business School at the University of Oxford. The producer is Eve Streeter. Original music is by [inaudible 00:44:09]. And our executive producer is David McGuire for Stable Productions. Many thanks for listening.