Jessica Long: Do you have a mindset that can envision something better than what we have today that's willing to say, why not? It's also, can I bring everybody along with me? That is one of the marks of a great leader. Andrew White: Hello, everybody. My name is Andrew White and I'm the host of the Leadership 2050 podcast, where we're looking at the future and what leadership means over the next few decades as we approach 2050. In this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Jessica Long, the author of The Circular Economy Handbook. This book and the ideas within it have been pioneered by Jessica and are already starting to have a revolutionary impact on, not just companies, but entire industries as well. Andrew White: So I really wanted to speak to Jessica about that, but also some of the events that had shaped the way she leads. So I started by asking Jessica to describe her work and why she's doing what she's doing today. Jessica Long: Thank you, Andrew, very excited to be on your show today. And I'm glad that we've had several of these conversations, I'd say, over the last couple of years. In terms of my work, I am the chief strategy officer at Closed Loop Partners, which is an investment firm and innovation centre focused exclusively on building and accelerating the circular economy. Jessica Long: And the reason I'm so excited about this work specifically around circular economy is I think it's really the perfect marriage of business and environment and broader societal impact. And it makes me quite excited for what we can do in the future. Andrew White: And for those people who aren't familiar with the concept of circular economy, could you just give a brief introduction and just also perhaps some examples of how you are seeing this idea reflected in how companies are now working today? Jessica Long: Definitely. And in many ways, circular economy is both a new concept and really as old as time. In its simplest form, today's linear economy is quite wasteful. You can think of a linear economy as one that is take, make, waste. Meaning we take materials from the ground. We make products and services out of them. We use them and then when we're done, we waste them. So heavily, heavily dependent on both extraction and land filling. Jessica Long: And today, we use about 1.6 times the earth's capacity, meaning we use 60% more than the earth can generate every year. And given our current trajectory that would go to probably like three earths, three or four earths, even by 2050. Clearly, that's not possible or sustainable. A circular economy tries to get rid of the concept of waste altogether. So instead of going from take, make, waste, you essentially go to an economy that is based on take, make, take, make, take, make. Jessica Long: I'm keeping valuable products and materials in my economy in production and consumption for really as long as possible. So, a couple of great examples, think of the stuff that you have in your house, whether they're furniture or your cell phone or your TVs or the clothing that you wear. Today's linear economy is very much based on individuals using those materials. Jessica Long: And when you're done with your chair or done with your T-shirt or done with your phone, you literally throw it away. And it, most likely more than 95% of the time, ends up in a landfill. And when you need a new shirt or a new phone or a new chair, new raw materials, often rare earth minerals and other valuable resources are extracted from the ground creating pretty significant environmental impact extracted from the ground just to create new products. Jessica Long: And the cycle begins again, you use those products and then landfill them again. In a circular economy, when you're done using shirt or your phone or your chair, it either would get reused and resold in its current form back to other individuals. And/or if it's at a point where it couldn't be reused, it would actually be broken down back into its raw components and created into new materials. So you basically eliminate the need for extraction and landfilling. Andrew White: So I guess a couple of things occur to me as you're talking, this is an idea that is fundamental to our future as humanity. On the one hand, it also means a radical shift from how our current economy creates value. I think I would take as an example, the table that I'm using it at the moment came from my great aunt. I think it's probably between 70 and 90 years old. Apart from a few scratches and coffee cup marks, it's perfectly functional. Andrew White: But companies would like me to throw it out and buy another one. And so what you are talking about means a different form of value creation if we're to continue to have economy that creates wealth and creates jobs for people. Jessica Long: Completely agree. And I think what's actually beautiful about this transition from linear to circular from a business perspective is it also changes the relationship between a business or a brand and its customer from this transactional one time, let me sell you this coffee table and then let me try to sell you another one later, to more of a personal relationship where you say, "Hey, let me sell you this coffee table. And when you're done with it, come back to me, bring me back that table. I'm going to find it a new home. Or let me repair it for you and actually sell it to you as a service." Jessica Long: "And maybe I'm selling you, if what you need isn't a coffee table, but you need a surface to write on, let me sell you a table as a service and essentially lease it to you. And I will come and pick it back up and give it to the next person that needs that table as a service." A great example of that is we're seeing companies go down the route of tyres as a service is a great example of a company that will say, "Give us back your tyre. At the end of you using it, we will be able to then reuse that rubber and steel and the other materials in that tyre, turn it back into a tyre and you, customer, don't have to worry about disposing of or figuring out what to do with that tyre." Jessica Long: So great examples of both reusing materials, but also changing the fundamental relationship, again between the brand and the customer to one of providing a service rather than a transactional one-off sale. Andrew White: So, are you seeing in your experience, is this large companies, let's say existing companies that are making this shift in how they operate, or is that re-imagining of relationships? Given the example you spoke about with a tyre, is that coming from startup companies and from people who don't have the legacy and the baggage of the linear economy? Jessica Long: It's definitely both, and there's advantages to being big and large and scale and advantages to being small and nimble and flexible. So if you think of some of the big companies out there, like a Philips or Michelin or Dell or others that really have the scale and the supply chains to be able to put in place these types of models, these circular models, for them, it's all about volume. Do I have enough volume and enough logistics that warrant these types of models or can make these type of models economically attractive for both me, business, and you, consumer. Jessica Long: And then for small companies, they often are a bit more agile and nimble, and they start their relationship with the customer as circular. So you think about companies like some of the startups that we work with like For Days, which is a clothing company where when they sell you clothing, they pay actually for you to return your clothing back to them. And they ensure that that clothing again stays in circulation. Jessica Long: So they started their business model that way. So they don't need to go back and educate the consumer on what to do. They start that education at the moment of initial customer adoption. So we're definitely seeing it at both ends. On the big brand side, I will say a lot of the brands are feeling both customer pressure and regulatory pressure to make these changes so that their stuff doesn't end up in a landfill. Jessica Long: So I think we're going to see a lot more big brands, big corporations moving towards circular economy, both because it economically makes sense and because they're getting that pressure, whether it'd be from customers or regulators or activists. Andrew White: So this requires either a huge amount of ambition. If you are setting a startup, an imagination, and it requires a huge amount of courage, if you're a large company, because you're going to have to completely transform the way you relate to your customers. You think about your products and services, how you generate revenue. In both situations, it requires a lot of leadership. Jessica Long: A hundred percent agree. And it's both leadership from the top to make some of those big courageous decisions, as you mentioned. It also requires leadership throughout the organisation. I mean, think about the ripple effects of changing from a one-off transactional model to one that requires more relationships with customers. Jessica Long: You go from incentivizing the sale of a widget to incentivizing a relationship with a customer. So it's quite a lot of differences and a lot of changes might need to happen within an organisation to ensure that that's a successful model. And then for the startups, because we live in a linear economy still, explaining to investors that this is the way of the future can be quite challenging as well. Andrew White: And is that the type of work you're involved in, in Closed Loop Partners? Are you working in that interface between the companies that are trying to do this and the investor community that's looking at this as an investment opportunity? Jessica Long: Yes, definitely. From an investment perspective, our asset management business invests in companies across their full life cycle really. So everything from venture to growth at buyout, as well as catalytic capital or debt. So we work across that entire life cycle where they might need some of that very early stage funding and support to really build out their model all the way through scale and growth of that company. Jessica Long: At the same time from the big brand perspective, our LPs or investors in our funds include some of the world's largest consumer goods companies, retailers, technology companies, and material science companies. So those are the big brands that are ultimately the end markets, or the ones that are looking to buy these products or services or materials or looking to integrate their solutions into their value chains. Andrew White: So can I take you back? And I know from that conversation, I think we had back in Oxford College a few years ago. This isn't just a job for you. This is something you're deeply passionate about. It's about how you see the world. Many of the other leaders I've interviewed have talked about moments in their life where they were suddenly awakened to something, or they had epiphanies or they realised what they wanted to focus on. Andrew White: For you, did this start somewhere? Were there moments that suddenly gave you clarity into how you wanted to focus your time and what you wanted to do with your life and particularly your work life? Jessica Long: Oof, that's a big question. I'd say my professional journey or my, I guess, work life started quite early. I grew up working in our family's business. So I worked in gasoline stations and convenience stores since I was quite young, probably seven or eight as everybody in our family did. Jessica Long: When it's a family business, often the kids are brought in quite, quite young. And I'd say that taught me the value in general of work very early. It taught me a lot about hard work and this general notion of just be the best at whatever it is that you're doing. Take pride in it whether it's cleaning bathrooms or making coffee or washing cars or balancing the books. Jessica Long: That value, I think, was instilled in me quite young. I then in college started actually got an internship at the office of US Senator, Senator Paul Wellstone from Minnesota. And that internship turned into a full-time position. And that exposed me to a whole other set of challenges that other people were facing. Jessica Long: So I was focused there on affordable housing, immigration, and unemployment. And that gave me a whole new perspective to what people had to deal with every day, what it meant to value your work and to again try to change systems or help people through the work that you're doing. Jessica Long: I then joined Accenture as you know, and I was with Accenture for nearly 20 years. So quite a long time in my career journey that I will say, I changed roles at Accenture every few years. So every five years or so, I started out in our technology practise, then moved into strategy. And then to your point about points in your career after working for maybe eight years at Accenture, I was totally burnt out and it was just too much for me. Jessica Long: And I actually was planning to leave. And I had a great mentor at the time who convinced me to do one more project that he thought could really give me a new perspective. And it happened to be a project in Kenya. And it was right after the post-election violence in Kenya, where the government was looking for some help in responding and coordinating NGOs, nongovernmental organisations to respond to that violence. Jessica Long: I had never been to Kenya. I'd never been to Africa. And I said yes because I knew I needed something different. I knew something was missing. And I wasn't connecting with my work in the same way. So I went to Kenya. It was meant to be this three-month project. Long story short, it turned into almost six years of not just working in Kenya, but building a practise across Africa and across our work in emerging markets, across Latin America and Southeast Asia as well. And that time across emerging markets, but specifically in Africa, I'd say, was definitely transformative for me. Jessica Long: And then after I came back to the US, another transformative time, and I think you and I have talked about this is on a personal level, I was assaulted kind of at the peak of my career. And that also was quite transformative for me personally, but also professionally and how I view leadership and how I view the impact that we can have in the world. Andrew White: First of all, can I say I'm so sorry to hear that. And we've spoken about this before. How has this left you? How has it left you in terms of a leader? And it's a very difficult thing to go through, but these things can also shape and form what we end up doing as a result of this. Jessica Long: Yeah. And thank you for your sentiment there. It happened several years ago, I was feeling great about what I was working on. I loved working with my colleagues. I felt I was having a real impact and then I was assaulted at a work event and it completely blew me back to the extent where I actually had to take a leave of absence from work. Jessica Long: I had to take time off to figure out what had happened and deal with like the logistics and also just really take time to understand who I am and what matters in life. I ended up actually having to rely heavily on a network of people around me. And again, this is when you start to realise what really matters. It's people, it's relationships. Jessica Long: That had a huge impact on me again both personally, as you can imagine, and also professionally, because I had that moment to step back and say what matters. What I think I ended up realising in terms of what matters is individual relationships that maybe sometimes that's more important than big businesses or big change and impact that you can have. So I try to spend a lot of my time now focused on those individual relationships. Jessica Long: The other thing I learned is that you have to use your voice. You have to use your power, your agency, whatever it is that you have to change the things that matter. And in some ways, you actually have a responsibility to do that when you are at a point where you have power in a sense. And so for me, what that meant was I happen to be in a fairly good position of power from the perspective of being a leader in a big business, from having a network of friends and colleagues. And I felt that I needed to use that power to change the system or the laws that were working against me. Jessica Long: And I've been working with an organisation called RISE that is focused on changing laws for survivors and victims of sexual assault. We're working right now with the United Nations on a UN resolution specifically on this topic. So I bring that up because I think personally and professionally, it definitely had a massive impact on my life. And I think it had a very positive impact for where I am today. Andrew White: Thank you. So as I listened to you when you talked about being burnt out, it kind of almost strikes me that this was a great resignation moment that many people are facing now in this, let's call it COVID world, or as we move into hopefully a post-COVID world where they're just recognising they don't want to be a slave to a job, a slave to the salary. And they want to think more holistically about what they want to do with their life and the impact they want to have. Andrew White: And there was something in you think that listened to that and then was open to opportunities both in terms of that time where you went and worked in Kenya on that project and then saw that develop, but then also later in Accenture as well. Jessica Long: Yeah, I think that's definitely right. And I remember thinking at the time with respect to burnout that for me at least, burnout was never about the number of hours that I worked. Clearly in consulting, you can end up working kind of crazy hours especially, crazy hours for a sustained period of time, which can be quite challenging on your mind and your body. Jessica Long: But for me, that was never burnout, the hours, because I know some people that work hours a day and feel burnt out and others that work 20 hours a day and feel great. For me, burnout was always this kind of moment of, are you good at what you do? Do you understand how the thing that you're doing has broader impact? And are you being recognised for it? And if those three things aren't true, I often find that people feel that sense of burnout or that sense of that great resignation, as you mentioned, this sense of something is just not right. Jessica Long: And for me at that time, it was more about, do I really feel that the thing I'm doing is making a difference. And at that time, I would've said, not really. I was getting recognised for it because I was getting promoted, I was good at what I was doing, but I didn't actually feel the real connection between the work I was doing every day and something bigger than myself. Jessica Long: When I was in Africa, that totally changed. I'd say, to me being in Africa, working on the ground, my first lesson was this need to be on the ground to really understand the impact that you're having, but also to really understand what really works and what does not work, which you often can't see if you're sitting thousands of miles away in a desk or in a room somewhere. Jessica Long: The second was like this notion of not just listening to but engaging all of the key stakeholders that are really part of both the problem that you're trying to solve as well as part of the solution. The third, I would say, is understanding the consequences including the unintended consequences of the work that you're doing, which again, really tough to see if you're sitting in a room or thousands of miles away. Jessica Long: And then the last thing I'll say is this notion of good enough and being able to make progress even if it's not perfect, which again, probably wasn't something that I could appreciate when I was in kind of a pure corporate strategy type of role in the US. So definitely, that was a huge moment of recognition of filling that gap around, can I see and feel the impact that my work is actually having? Andrew White: So there was something deeply reconnecting about that or connecting. I'm just struck by what you said about feeling the consequences and the unintended consequences. And I think often, we can become separated from the real impact of our work or what we're responsible for the more we get promoted. And you talked about in a sense disconnecting from something to reconnect with something else and that then giving you the energy to then move into something in the next wave of what you are going to be responsible for and what you were going to lead. Jessica Long: Yeah, definitely. And I think there's both this notion of physical disconnect and mental and emotional disconnect. So maybe it's all three of those components that I was feeling. I had been promoted several times and to your point, that further separated me in a sense both physically and emotionally and mentally. So that distance was created in some ways artificially because of the movements maybe that I made in my career upwards, which was great from a career perspective, but not great from a connection or from a soul perspective. Jessica Long: So being on the ground and really working with my teams and working with either the end users or the consumers and the stakeholders of the challenges we were addressing changed all of that. It gave me that physical connection where I could literally touch and see and feel what we were doing. And it gave me that emotional and mental connection where I could more quickly understand the implications of what we were doing, as well as pivot then if something was off. And I must say there were many things that were off that I would never have known if I had not been on the ground, working day in and day out on the projects we were doing. Andrew White: So, this starts in Kenya, moves across Africa, it moves across the other emerging markets. You then come back to the US. And I think from my own recollection of the conversation, you get involved in work around climate. And I think that also had a profound effect on you and again, the kind of work you wanted to do and how you see the world. Jessica Long: Yeah. When I was coming back to the US after spending those several years working in emerging markets, working on international development, working on business and different markets, I was given an amazing opportunity by Accenture to take over our sustainability practise. And at that time, I remember saying to the folks at Accenture, "I got to tell you, I don't know, honestly, the issues around the environment or climate change well enough to take this on." Jessica Long: So I probably had my own imposter syndrome type of moment in coming back. And they said, "Listen, we want you to do basically the kind of things that you did in Africa. Set up new businesses, find the challenges, find the connections between business and societal and environmental challenges, and figure out what that means in the US." Jessica Long: And again, exciting opportunity, something that was a bit foreign to me but excited for the challenge. So I said absolutely yes, and took on this role that was sustainability more broadly and had the opportunity to kind of define what sustainability meant for us, which for Accenture, we were looking at it as environmental sustainability. So clearly, climate change, climate action fell into that bucket. It meant broader socioeconomic impact. And it meant marrying these concepts together into what became a huge focus for us, which was circular economy. Jessica Long: And I think circular economy in this notion of changing economic models was so important because it allowed us to find the real business and economic motivations for having positive social and environmental outcomes. As opposed to saying, "You should do these things because it's the right thing to do, or because it's some kind of ESG, philanthropic effort," we were saying, "Actually, you should do these things because it's better for business, it's better for your relationship with customers. And it's crucial for you to become more resilient, especially in a very volatile complex world." Andrew White: Yeah. I mean, it just strikes me that given what we're talking about on this podcast series, none of us are experts when it comes to the future. And we need a little bit of expertise in the recipe, but we also need some values. We also need some belief that something has to be different. You can be an expert in the status quo, in the current business, but when we're talking about something that's the future, that expertise becomes less important. And there's more things in the recipe that we're talking about here. Jessica Long: Definitely. And I'd always be a little bit cautious of anybody that tells you that they're an expert in the future, unless it's like a Marty McFly type of thing, right? It's more about mindset. Do you have a mindset that can envision something better than what we have today that's willing to say, "Why not? Or, what's a different model or what would need to be true for this other future or this alternative to exist? And let's work toward that thing," versus saying, "Well, this is the way it's always been. Or, here's all the reasons why you can't do X, Y, Z." Jessica Long: So that mindset and that mindset shift, I think, is probably more important than being a deep expert in whatever the topic might be, whether it's climate or the environment or business or any myriad of things you can imagine. Andrew White: So can we use this to pivot towards the future? And I think what I'm really interested in hearing from you is when you look across the landscape of the leaders you work with, who've been those types of transformational leaders the world needs, is there a kind of recipe book? Is there some advice we could boil this down into for others who want to go on this path? Jessica Long: I think it probably is a combination of things. I don't know if I have the full recipe. But for me, it's probably a combination of first and foremost asking questions. It's people that ask why or why not. And I'm always shocked by how rarely we ask questions, seeing people who are struggling or people experiencing homelessness and not asking why is that the situation, or working in business and sitting in a board room and looking at the numbers and not asking what else could be true, or what else would we need to do to change our business. So I think that this first element of just asking why is super important. Jessica Long: A second quality or ingredient in this recipe that we're talking about is being able to take risks, especially at your own expense. So, knowing that it might fail and being comfortable sitting in failure or being comfortable looking at failure is really just a lesson for not right yet type of thing. And then three, I'd say there's something about curiosity and endless curiosity, especially to just learn new things and take different viewpoints, not assuming that whatever you know and whatever your mindset is, is the right one. Jessica Long: And then maybe four, the super important one, there's something about just like sticking with it. I mean, I'd say especially given everything as a global society, we've been going through in the last few years, being able just to persevere and keep trying new things. It's the thing that we thought was going to work didn't work. Andrew White: I think it's so interesting. And it resonates with a research project that I'm currently working on, on transformation. And so much of it is about the, let's call it the inner world of the leader, and how that's then exhibited in terms of behaviour. One of the other things we also found in our work, which I think complements what you are saying is this whole concept of leading a social movement. Social movements have historically been outside of business, and business was much more about a machine, a transaction entity. Andrew White: And what we're seeing is that, and I think you talked about it at the beginning where somebody stands up and says, "This business exists for a greater good." It also has to take into account people's values, people's beliefs and weave that into a collected purpose. So the concept of a leader having more than just a command and control, or more than just a hierarchy at their disposal, but also having to lead and inspire and take a whole group of people with them, I think, is also really important. Jessica Long: That might be the missing fifth piece because those four pieces could be how to be a great individual contributor and how to lead in your own career and in your own company or lead your own movement. I think there's a fifth element of peak leadership or something that is bringing people along with you towards the change. And that can be actually the most difficult part of leadership. Jessica Long: It's not just, what's my vision, what's the mission, what's the new model and challenging the status quo, asking those questions, everything we were just talking about. I think one of the qualities or marks of a great leader is being able to bring folks, especially those that may not agree with you along toward what you think is the right thing. Andrew White: And I think as well though, never has there been a better environment in which to do that. I'm struck by what you spoke about earlier on about that tyre business. Not really an exciting business, but actually when you think about the difference that that makes where all those tyres are not going into landfill, where you're able to build a relationship with customers rather than just have a transaction. That starts to give a little bit of life and purpose to an organisation. Andrew White: So I think we're in a place where the opportunity to do this has never been greater given the need for businesses that are going to take us into the future and demonstrate what the future looks like. Jessica Long: A hundred percent agree. And it's so interesting whenever you ask people like who are the great business leaders out there, who are the great innovators, people always point to the more disruptive CEOs or disruptive startups that are tech enabled and maybe a bit sexier, like maybe not a tyre. But when you really think about the things that we use and we need every day in our lives, like the chair and the table and your phone or your medication or your shower, all these things that we use every day, those are the things that need disruption. Those are often the things that have massive linear supply chains that are really difficult to change, really difficult to break and be rebuilt. Jessica Long: So, if you're looking at how can I look to make something significantly different that will have lasting long-term impact, it's often in some of these areas that might not be considered like the cool, sexy thing to work in. It might be saying I have a new better way to provide you a tyre or a chair or a table. They're the things that you use and make every day, and that run our entire global economy. Andrew White: Jessica, this has been fantastic. Really, really insightful into, not just the work you're doing but your journey, but also in terms of the recipe for others and what they need to do to get started on this journey. So can we end with the seven questions that I've used with all my other guests, which are done in a quick fire away? So the first one is which leader from history inspires you most? Jessica Long: I think it's really difficult to admire and be inspired by someone without knowing their full story, especially now. So for example, they may have been a great leader in business, but were they good to their family? Were they good to their friends? Did they treat their employees well? There are qualities and lessons that I take from historical figures like Shackleton or Mandela or Margaret Mead and RBG and others. So I think it's more about the many qualities and lessons that we can learn rather than one specific leader. Andrew White: Yeah, it's a very good point. And if you apply that same mentality to leaders today, are there people today that are really inspiring you with the different qualities that they bring? Jessica Long: Yeah. So same thing, no one person. But definitely, again, when we think about those qualities that we were talking about, I mean, just look at President Zelenskyy and this, he meets all of those criteria of both the perseverance that questions the moving things forward towards what he believes is a better future. Jessica Long: There's an amazing woman named Amanda Nguyen that I work with in her nonprofit startup, RISE, which is fundamentally asking questions and changing the status quo because they're looking to change laws, especially as it pertains to survivors of sexual assault. So I'd say there's many people right now that are asking those questions and pushing the boundaries of what is meant to be the norm. And I think that's what's really exciting. Andrew White: And then in terms of books that have had made a real impact on you, is there one or two that really stand out as books that you go back to over and over again? Jessica Long: Yeah, I guess from a career perspective, it's one of those things where different points in your career, different books mean and help you in different ways. Early in my career was all about being as independent as possible. So for me, it was all about the classics like Getting Things Done and Seven Habits. Jessica Long: Later in my career, it was all about how can I better lead teams. And for me, it was more things like Social Styles and StrengthsFinder. So it was more tools in a sense. And then later in my career, it was more, how do we change the system. So that would be things like, Good to Great and Competition Demystified, Trusted Advisor. Jessica Long: And then now, I'm kind of going back to some books now like The Hard Things About Hard Things, which is focused a lot on growth companies and really navigating through change and difficult times. And then there's a lot of fiction books that actually have influenced me. One that I'll mention that I read every few years is Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, probably which was a book that got me interested in and deeply connected to the environment. Andrew White: Fantastic. And then the next question is what I've asked others is what characteristic do you look for most in those you promote? I'm also interested in people you decide to invest in. Jessica Long: And there's probably a lot of parallels here because I'd say earlier in somebody's career, when I think about promotion, is somewhat similar to when we think about early stage companies. I'm looking for curiosity, dedication, an intense desire to learn, focused. And then for individuals later in their career, as well as companies later stage, I'm much more interested in servant leadership and followership. Everything we were just talking about before around, are you able to bring an entire company and groups of people along with you and carry them forward towards your vision? Andrew White: The last two, what makes you most hopeful when you think about the future? Jessica Long: I think that we're actually seeing a shift both in terms of mindset and mentality of, "Hey, there could be something better out there." And maybe more important that there's a shift in terms of agency and voice, that there's a larger, more diverse group of people that actually have the ability or at least believe that they have the ability to make a change. We're not relying on waiting until people reach a certain level in their career or in their life to be the ones to make the change. It's a very diverse, broader group of people that are involved today. Andrew White: And then finally, where do you go for inspiration for rest, for renewal? Jessica Long: Always nature, even if it's in the city. I spend hours in Central Park here in New York City. I try to go out on the weekends as much as possible to go hiking in the woods, go out in the ocean, just in nature always brings me back. Always reminds me of why I am here and why we do what we do. And I learned a tonne from nature. Andrew White: My thanks to Jessica Long. You've been listening to Leadership 2050, a podcast from Saïd Business School at the University of Oxford. Take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. And if you'd like to hear more from Saïd Business School, exploring leadership, please visit oxfordanswers.org. Leadership 2050 is produced by Eve Streeter. Original music is by [Seiberg 00:38:11]. Our executive producer is David McGuire for Stabl Productions. Andrew White: In the next episode, I'll be talking to the spiritual leader taking the world by storm, Thomas Hübl. Until then, thanks for listening.