Toto Wolff: I've been in dark places quite a few times, and it doesn't last a day or a week, it can go on from months. But that will make you so much stronger because there was so much introspection, so much analysis about your life. This sensitivity that is being given to you, that felt like a burden can actually be a superpower. Andrew White: Hello, my name is Andrew White and welcome back to Leadership 2050, a podcast bringing you leadership lessons from the front lines of positive change. I'm a Leadership Coach and Senior Fellow in Management Practise here at Saïd Business School, where my work focuses on leadership that's fit for the 21st century. In this new series, you'll meet six more exceptional leaders who are at the forefront of addressing the challenges between now and 2050. In this episode, I'm in conversation with Toto Wolff, the CEO, Team Principle and Co-owner of Mercedes-AMG Petronas Formula One team. Toto shares the secrets to his success, and he talks openly about overcoming childhood tragedy, the need to show weakness and admit your mistakes, and how sensitivity can be a superpower. I began by asking Toto to tell us a little bit about his journey to Formula One. Toto Wolff: I was born in Vienna, in 1972. Was raised in Vienna in an International School, and tried to make it as a racing driver between 18 and 22, which didn't work for financial reasons, mainly financial reasons. My wife says it's actually of talent reasons, so we clearly disagree on that one. But I went into venture capital afterwards, and did that for 20 years. And combined, in my mid [inaudible 00:01:45], combined the investment activity with motor racing. And then invested in a Rally team, then in a Touring Car team. Ended up with a minority stake of up to 20% in a Formula One team called Williams. And by 2012, the CEO quit, and I ended up in an executive position for the first time in my life. So before I would only be on either non-executive or just a shareholder. So it was easy because I could comment from the sidelines, the kind of guy, I know it better, but never run it in an executive position. Toto Wolff: And 2012 was actually quite a successful year. It was the last victory for Williams. And by the end of 2012, [Timer 00:02:31] asked me to assess why their team wasn't performing to the expectations. And I, without wanting to badmouth anybody from Mercedes, started to look at the structure and came to the conclusion that it there was a disconnect between [Schrutkurt 00:02:46] and the team in UK. And they offered me a job then, and said, well, we'd like you to be the Team Principal and Chief Executive Officer, and also the Head of all our Motorsport Activities. And that was a nice challenge, but I felt I was a shareholder at Williams and didn't want to give that entrepreneur side up. Toto Wolff: And so they came back and said, we've actually just bought back our stake from Sovereign Fund Investment Company from Abu Dhabi. Would you like to buy that? And this is how I ended up in the Mercedes Team with a third share holding. And today it's three equal shareholders, 33%. Mercedes 33%, Jim Ratcliffe [inaudible 00:03:29] and 33% myself. And since 2013, I acted as a Team Principal and Chief Executive Officer. And we had quite a good run on championships with a hundred percent score rate. We're winning every constructive championship and driver championships since then. Andrew White: And that's one of the things I really want to focus on, Toto, because it has been quite remarkable. When I think about high performance, I really do struggle to think about another organisation that has done as well, at the elite of an industry. So is there a recipe book, if you had to kind of try and really distil what you brought in a leadership role, in an organisational role to bring about that success, what's really underpinned it from your point of view? Toto Wolff: I think that is quite difficult to respond because it's not a single trick. It's more that we sometimes speak about a team or a company, but fundamentally a team is people, in various positions with various responsibilities. And my single most important task is to provide a framework for the many competent and skilled people so they can function best. So I'm not running a race car, but I'm running people that run race cars. And I have a real interest in the people. I have psychological background, but probably the worst of both worlds because I am an amateur psychologist. And I'm conscious about that, that it's maybe not the academic science that a real psychologist has. But I have a lot of experience from my venture capital side on assessing people's personalities and skills and organisational structures, and how to deploy human resources in the best possible way. Toto Wolff: So it's an interest for the people. It is trying to understand how to maximise the performance, but not in an opportunistic way, but maximising the performance by providing an environment that they feel motivated about, energised and passionate. And I think that's the second most important topic is that, I found my niche. I was a racing driver. I saw it in the car, how difficult it is. I raced in rallying and endurance racing in single seaters. So I can probably filter the nonsense out from what really matters. And I wasn't financed, which is a large part of the team because we are business studies, generating more than 550 million US dollars in revenue. And I think you need to have the competence in your area. I believe in focus and you have to be the best or strive for the best in that area. And this is what I constantly do. Trying to improve myself, develop every single day, never feel a sense of entitlement and perform better tomorrow than today. Andrew White: So there's, I mean, when I listen to you, there's something about a curiosity into people, what motivates them. And almost a curiosity into what they could be. When I'm thinking about you as a CEO, you've created a world in which people can flourish. And if people become their best collectively, then the organisation performs. So there's something deeply psychological, as you say. There's also, what I hear is that, you found your sweet spot. Those various threads of your life have come together. You have enough empathy for the driver because you've been a driver. You understand the finance, there's something about psychology. It's in this mix that your leadership really embeds itself in the organisation. Toto Wolff: I don't like the word management style, because there are so many different ways of managing people that I wouldn't want to define it as one single style. And for me personally, it's being authentic. If you're not authentic, there can be a conscious realisation of your audience that there is something not right. And there is even an unconscious side where people, without the, let's say, intellectual capability, will say, I don't like that person or I like it. So this is how I do it. I see the team as my tribe, including the drivers. I will defend them whenever I can. And I take it quite personal when things go against us while always trying to keep rational and logic. Toto Wolff: But, it's just the interest for the people. I love spending time with the key decision makers. I love spending time with staff that contribute to the performance, or don't, try to find out why is it that they are not, because, what can I do? Fundamentally, it's my responsibility when somebody doesn't perform. And by optimising the setup or their framework, there's so many ways of optimising that by trying to understand the person, that is not only benefits like money or power, that could be internal recognition or the fact that you want to be externally recognised, have more free time for your family or your hobby. And you can actually break that down into many other things, but you can only do that if you know the personalities. And what I demand from my leaders is that they do the same within their departments and further down. And this is a culture that takes time to implement, and that we have really achieved with all the support of everybody in the organisation. Andrew White: And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what I heard was, getting to truth, getting to honesty quickly, is the way you get through problems. If something goes wrong, being authentic about it, being honest about it, having that no blame culture, that some people speak of, allows you to address it. Allows you to then bring about transformation. And it's the transformation that then leads to the performance. Toto Wolff: Yes. And that's the tricky bit because you can put it on a PowerPoint and say, we want to empower, or we want honesty within the organisation so we can actually solve the problems. But you need to live it every day from the top. I need to objectively show my weaknesses and the mistakes I make. I need to empower whilst recognising that sometimes mistakes are made, but we will learn from that. This is one of the key things which I'm really trying to bang the drum a lot because at the end, many leaders are control freaks and micromanagers. But I think the first step to break it down to a more positive working environment is to recognise that you are. And fundamentally, if you hire the right people and you develop them, you trust them, you start to empower them. Toto Wolff: And we try to define, in the board, the key targets. And we utilise a sentence from a Spice Girl song that says, tell me what you really, really want. So we are telling them, or I am telling them, what I really, really want. But I leave it to them to solve the problems and take the decision their way, and as Aspiring Partner, as a Sounding Board, as the judge in a court. And I'm involved into many decisions, but sometimes just as a listener, I love attending technical meetings where probably my background is not enough to understand the detail, but I'm still there. I like to listen. I enjoy looking at the dynamic in the room, what happens, and take conclusions from that. So micromanager and control freak doesn't interfere into any decision, but knows everything that happens in the organisation that is important. Andrew White: And so much of what you are saying, to my mind, is about who you are. Your values, your worldview, and that's formed by experiences in life. So can I kind of take you back, when you look over the course of your life, have there been specific incidents that have really helped shape and form you? That have created some of the approaches you're now deploying, and have formed your worldview, formed your values? Toto Wolff: Yeah. Probably the, a difficult childhood and teenage years. But then in a way everybody will have their story and will perceive it as difficult. But in my case, there is my personal perception, my father was very ill from an early age and died at 39 from a brain tumour. That kept us suffering for 10 years. At the worst of all worlds, because I was educated in a private school, money was never really enough to pay the fees. But I saw wealthy kids and their lifestyle whilst not having anything near that. And when my father become very ill, I remember thinking, I just want to be responsible for myself. I don't want to be any more controlled by a parent or by an uncle or an aunt, but I want to take decisions for myself and for my sister and my mom. So very early on, probably at the age of 12, I felt that I was leading the family, and that's the way I started to take decisions, that could have quite some outcome. So that was the second lesson. Toto Wolff: Then in motor racing, the brutal honesty, the stopwatch never lies. You either good enough or not. And everything else you can see at the Press Conference, if you're a politician and find explanations, but this is not how the sport functions. It will be straight into your face. And every commentary is just makes more sense. You just need to improve yourself. And I think these ingredients helped me to become who I am. I absolutely dislike internal politics. I will find out if you bullshit me. Integrity, loyalty and not dealing in lies is key for me. And if somebody doesn't fit into that framework of values, then there is no place in the organisation. And even for the genius jerk, we are not a team of superstars, but we a star team. So you need to fit into the organisation and play with everybody. Andrew White: And one of the challenges I can imagine you face after being so successful is, in a sense, the renewed ambition, the renewed drive. I'm not suggesting you've done this because the evidence is to the contrary, but in some companies, they almost get complacent. But I think for anybody, once you've achieved so much, you have to find it again. You have to wake up tomorrow and find that passion and that drive. So are there things you're doing differently now to maintain that success? That are different from what you did at the beginning, when you came in, and in a sense initiated the journey that you're now on? Toto Wolff: I think it's clear that if you are lucky enough to rely on an organisation that is skilled, you start winning. And obviously the drive is enormous at the beginning. You want to, in our sport, you want to win races, championships. And once you won, you want to demonstrate that you haven't been a one-time wonder. And then we are also pretty lucky that regulations were changed in order to change the packing order. So that motivated us. And every single year, we are trying to define objectives that are important for the company, the department, and the individual. It's quite difficult to say, this is the [AB 00:15:53] target, which we are trying to achieve. What is in it for the people below? Why is an AB target important? Because it may have a financial benefit, but financial benefits are one thing, you get used to them pretty quickly. So there must be more about those targets. Toto Wolff: And leaders often forget that the ones that actually bring performance up, are not only the ones that are highly visible and at the top of the food chain. And therefore it's dangerous to say, okay, what do I want? I want more money. I want more power. I want more recognition, a better car, a nice lifestyle. Well, I am not important. I need to understand that everybody in the organisation wants to achieve things and wants to be motivated, and tries to have the right objectives. So we need to find out what that is. Toto Wolff: And if we are successful in finding out what the objectives are in the organisation, from the people, then you are one step further and you can describe those objectives, discuss them. And we do that every single year. We spend days of discussing these. We write them down, we reshape them. And they end up on a laminated paper that everybody has in their briefcase. Or in their backpack. And you look at them often, if you look for your laptop or your iPad. And having the objective is ultra important. You need to develop a blueprint for it, because if you can't see your target, you won't reach it. Andrew White: Yeah. So there's something, I mean, it sounds like you spend a lot of time working with people, working with teams and understanding how objectives cascade down from the win, right the way through to what it means for each individual. Can I just bring in a theme that's been going on in the world at the moment around mental health, and in a sense performance. If performance is the right hand, then our mental health or our wellbeing, or our resilience is the left hand. And we're not robots in that sense. Have you seen the need to bring more caring for people? Have you seen the need to look after people, have practises like meditation or mindfulness or yoga, or the whole plethora of different interventions? Have they started to have a relevance in your world? Toto Wolff: They do, because they're close to my heart. There was a face in management where it was all about working the long hours, being the first in the office and the last out. Work with a baseball bad and drumming it into people, you needed to just perform, nothing else. And people cracked. But it was impossible to actually speak up about that because it would show a weakness. You became stigmatised, a weak mental health issue. So many people suffered quietly. And then we entered the next phase that this became more of a topic. And companies jumped on the bandwagon and say, well, we are offering meditation and we are offering flexible working hours, et cetera, et cetera. But it was more of an exercise that HR departments felt they needed to do. It was still, as a matter of fact, very much the performance environment, that you still needed to work the long hours. Toto Wolff: Look at investment banks, where the people work 80 hours a week, there's no weekend. And now we are in a third phase where actually many successful people come out and say, I suffer from mental health issues. And it started in sports and it goes over to successful business people. Because I have found out in my life that very many of the superstar performers suffer from depressive episodes, anxiety, insecurity, and have been in dark places. And I think for many people out there, that's in a way a relief. Because you know you're not alone. You can still achieve things and be successful whilst recognising that this sensitivity that is being given to you, that felt like a burden, can actually be a superpower. Because you're just simply feel your environment much more. And that is what I'm trying, personally, to make my environment known. And then I started speaking publicly about it. Toto Wolff: And it's not like I had a bad day or I was angry, no, I've been in dark places, quite a few times. And it doesn't last a day or a week. It can go on for months. And it's quite difficult to work yourself out. But there is always the moment where suddenly the light goes on again. And that will make you so much stronger because there was so much introspection, so much analysis about your life that has happened in these days, which normally you're just trotting along, it doesn't happen. Andrew White: So it's a, I suppose in many ways, it's a wonderful shift to see in the world, that this compassion is starting to come into organisations of all shapes and form. Are there particular practises that you have personally found useful that help you through those dark places? You know, other places you go, is it time with the family? Time in nature? People talk about meditation, yoga. And I think it's quite a personal journey that people go through to find what works for them. Toto Wolff: Yeah. Like you say, it's very personal. Things will work for one person and wouldn't work for the other one. Meditation is a wonderful thing. I learned mindfulness meditation and mantra meditation helped me to explore, bedside. But for me, I need more active meditation. Active meditation means concentrating on a single task rather than having your brain constantly jumping from one topic to the other. I like sport activities that scare me, that oblige me to think about that only. Racing a car or driving a race car is a function like this. You will not think about anything else, your problems, when you're in a car. Go kitesurfing, be exposed to the sea and the wind and not always be in control. And these are the activities that take my mind off. And when I do this for an hour or two, I come out and say, but I didn't suffer actually, whilst doing it. Toto Wolff: And some will go walking in the nature, for me that's too slow, makes me think even more. So you need to find out what's good for you. And I have a great support network in my family. My wife is totally understanding of what I need in order to function best. I'm very open with my children, not with the four year old, but I have a 17 year old daughter, Rosa, and a 20 year old son, Benedict. And these guys have almost, the children have always, almost become consultants to myself, and giving me feedback. And that is a wonderful thing for a parent to find out, that your children are so close to yourself. Toto Wolff: So there's lots of factors that have helped me. But also within the organisation, I'm quite open and said, well, I need time off or I'm simply off. You need to carry the ball. And they do. And when I come back, I run, and I run fast and faster than anybody else. But in between I need to stop and take a breath. And that's what I did. For example, last year COVID was quite difficult for me, because suddenly the wheel stops, the hamster wheel stops and you're right there and say, [inaudible 00:23:36]. I've always run, but what do I do with my time if the music stops and that was quite difficult. Andrew White: Yeah. And I know what you mean when you were talking about active sports, I sail. And I know when the wind picks up and the boat starts heeling over, I can't think about anything else. I've got to keep the crew safe. I've got to keep the boat out of trouble and difficulties. And for two or three hours, it's all consuming. And no matter what I might be worried about or thinking about before I'm sailing, that becomes, it's almost like a hard reset in some ways, in terms of moving into a completely different environment. And so I can, I'm similar in that I enjoy that spike of adrenaline to kind of give me a different perspective. Toto Wolff: Well, that is exactly what mindfulness is. Mindfulness means being focused on a single task, have your thoughts and emotions focused. And some people do that by transcendental meditation. Some other do it in a different way with a mantra or concentrating on your breaths. And other do it like you, or I, doing something that, without being in the moment, without having your mind sharp and focused, you will trip over. And that could hurt. That could be embarrassing. Andrew White: Yes. Toto Wolff: So that is mindfulness. Andrew White: Yeah. So, just final set of questions really on the future. And there's, Formula One is high profile. A lot of people look at it. We've got big shifts going on in the world, around the internal combustion engine and carbon. You've been at the heart of some of the debates around Black Lives Matter. How do you see the sport evolving? What do you see the challenges it faces, when you think about the next five to 10 years? Toto Wolff: It's clear that the environment suffers. And if we don't stop polluting the world, the next generation will pay the bill. And most probably things will not be recoverable. And I think we have a huge responsibility and obligation to reduce our greenhouse emissions. And the car industry, whilst not being responsible for huge amounts, I mean, we start talking low single digit numbers of emissions, can lead the way with a technology shift. And the big auto manufacturers have all transitioned into an electric vehicle environment because they were obliged to. Because the markets simply paid a big premium to EV manufacturers, starting with Tesla. But you can see today with some of the other competitors like Lucid or Rivian, today I read that Rivian has the market capitalization of Volkswagen whilst being a startup. I don't think they have made one single car drive out there. That means if you're managing an auto company, a traditional auto company, you have no choice. You need to get into this area. Toto Wolff: And it's what your shareholders will be asking from you because it is what we need to do, help to transition from the current energy sources into new sustainable energy sources. And I think what's happening in real life is that, in an urban environment, in the developed countries, we will drive electric vehicles within a few years. The infrastructure will be there, super charging and being able to commute from home to home, or from home to work, and plug the car in. But there will be many areas, rural or underdeveloped countries where internal combustion are going to play a big role for a long time. And probably that's the majority of old cars. There will be industrial machines and equipment that will run on diesel or will run on conventional fuels. Toto Wolff: And what Formula One is doing is actually helping that energy transition. Since 2014, we have the most efficient hybrid engine in the world. We haven't been very good at communicating this, but today we have thermal efficiency of over 50%. That means everything that we put in a car in terms of fuel, up to a percentage of 50% propels the car forward. No other car, or no other industry has that. And now we're just going into the next phase and introducing a hundred percent sustainable fuel from green sources, in 2026. And we will fuel our cars with that sustainable fuel and help the energy transition in everywhere. So we do hybrid on a very high technical level, and we do sustainable fuel that will find their way into hundreds of million of cars with conventional internal combustion engine. And that is a big role that we play. The technology will be groundbreaking for use. And then who knows what happens in 2030? Whether we switch to electric propulsion, a hundred percent electric propulsion or something, and so you just need to be open minded about technology. Andrew White: It's very much a role you play in Formula One, above and beyond entertaining us through the racing, you're also the place of innovation and so much comes from you in that respect as well, that contributes to the wider industry. So Toto, thank you for all of that. I want to end my bit with what I call Seven Quickfire Leadership Questions. So the first of which is, which leader from history inspires you most? Toto Wolff: I haven't really found a single person that inspires me most. I'd rather pick certain attributes from a person's character or achievements and almost make the perfect avatar that becomes a role model for myself. Andrew White: Okay. So that would apply to today as well as historically as well? Toto Wolff: Absolutely. Andrew White: So the third question moving on is, is there a book that's had an impact on you? Toto Wolff: Yes, although I'm not very good with finishing books. There is many books that I enjoyed reading, maybe not to the end. One book that inspired me most, or book that I learned most was The Art of War, and the learnings from crisis and war time. And the application in the real world whether for a sports team or a company. And I was lucky enough to have worked with Stephen Bungay, who did the book and talk about our team. We had him in various offsites, and that was a great experience. Andrew White: And you know, you've answered this to some extent already, but you are obviously promoting people. You're putting people into leadership roles. Are there one or two things that really stand out in terms of characteristics that you're looking for? Toto Wolff: Most important is whether that person lives to our values. In a sense, I feel if somebody has the integrity to fit into our organisation and buys into the values, obviously the academic background or the competence and skill are important, but more the personality. Andrew White: And then the younger generation, are there things that you're seeing in that generation that really inspire you? Toto Wolff: The younger generation need to fight much harder to get the jobs, and end up in organisations that in a business that they're passionate about it. So, a huge amount of skill that is needed in order to get your dream job. And I think the overall level of performance of students is much higher than many years ago. When I go through our campus and I see lots of new faces, young faces, I see the drive, I see the motivation. I see them enjoying the opportunity that was given to them, not only to work in Formula One, but to work for Mercedes, for this almighty brand, for successful team, where they can learn from the senior leaders. And that is something that just gives me pure joy in seeing the power of that group. Andrew White: Yeah. And when you think about the future, what makes you hopeful? Toto Wolff: Well, you always need to be hopeful about the future. And I think we, in terms of the sustainability, I see there's strong push for many of the leaders in order to change things. And this is a first initial step. I think that industrial countries, that are not in the developed world, we need to give them enough scope to actually transition their energy consumption into more greener solution. And we just need to accept that doesn't happen from one day to the other. And in terms of our sport, we are at an all time high, our audiences have grown, our revenues have grown. We have tapped new fans by Netflix and other activities. Our social media channels are literally exploding. And we have a tough fight on the track, which is exactly what the sport needs. Personalities, drivers, team bosses, that fight hard in order to win. And so, Formula One is really going from strengths to strengths. Toto Wolff: There's side of me that is the dominant side, that I want to crush to a position and win every single race, and every single championship. But then there is the business side that says it is probably not realistic to win every single championship until I decide to quit the sport. There's not many teams that won a world championship. There's not many that have repeated it. And we are the only one that has won seven times in a row. So I try to keep with my friends and colleagues to push the needle even further. And we have more challenge. We need to fight tougher, find one day somebody else is going to be there and win a championship, but that's good for business. So I'm trying to explain a loss to myself with the upside on the business side. But that part of me hasn't actually won about the competitive me. Andrew White: And then finally, where do you go for inspiration and renewal? Toto Wolff: This is spending time with my wife and my children. I am pretty exhausted by the many conversations I need to have during the week and then coming home and just being me and not needing to entertain anybody. It's just great. So my wife is my partner, my best friend, aspiring partner, sounding board, and the same with my children. So that is really something that helps me to reenergize and come back stronger. Andrew White: Many thanks to Toto Wolff. My name is Andrew White, and you've been listening to Leadership 2050, a podcast from Saïd Business School at the University of Oxford. You can catch up with all our previous episodes from series one, wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, why not subscribe so you never miss an episode. And help others to find us by taking a moment to give us a rating and a review. And if you'd like to hear more from Saïd Business School, exploring leadership, and how the business world is reimagining the future, please visit oxfordanswers.org. Leadership 2050 is produced by Eve Streeter. Original music is by [Saibag 00:35:21]. Our Executive Producer is David McGuire for Stabl productions. Andrew White: In the next episode, I'll be talking to theoretical neuroscientist, Vivienne Ming, about using artificial intelligence to maximise human potential. Until then, take care and many thanks for listening.