0:02:23.280,0:02:28.320 Hello everyone, welcome to the Oxford Smart Space 0:02:28.320,0:02:35.600 Series, this is a set of activities, a set of panels hosted at Oxford University grappling 0:02:35.600,0:02:41.280 with some of the current debates and issues in the emerging and changing space sector. 0:02:41.280,0:02:46.080 I'm Marc Ventresca on the faculty here at the Saïd Business School and Wolfson College and 0:02:46.080,0:02:52.960 we're joined today by a very distinguished panel who represent a wide range of positions and views 0:02:52.960,0:02:59.440 in this emerging sector. The theme for today is really trying to understand key developments in 0:02:59.440,0:03:05.680 what we're calling business process innovation and really focused on infrastructures for new ventures; 0:03:05.680,0:03:10.160 that's a set of topics that involve everything from how we fund 0:03:10.160,0:03:15.520 ventures in the space sector, not only commercial initiatives but also within the legacy 0:03:15.520,0:03:21.760 agencies and other new intermediaries in the sector; it's also a question of what's exciting and 0:03:21.760,0:03:27.920 important about those new forms of infrastructure and again I'm using that word in a very broad way, 0:03:27.920,0:03:34.400 not only material or hardware or technology but to understand the infrastructure that makes possible 0:03:34.400,0:03:38.960 these novel extraordinary efforts that characterise space today. 0:03:39.760,0:03:45.600 This series in general is grappling with issues from technology and governance, what we at Oxford 0:03:45.600,0:03:51.520 are calling Smart Space, that is recognising the role of emerging technologies like artificial 0:03:51.520,0:03:57.760 intelligence and other tools but also the continued importance of the role of state actors, 0:03:57.760,0:04:03.520 government funding and new kinds of funding consortia, the enormous growth in commercially 0:04:03.520,0:04:10.160 funded or venture capital funded initiatives as well as a new generation of state space 0:04:10.160,0:04:17.360 agencies across the world. Our panel today comes from a wide set of places; we are located in 0:04:17.360,0:04:24.400 Japan, in Europe and the UK, and also in the US Bay Area in Silicon Valley. My panel today are 0:04:24.400,0:04:29.840 three very distinguished colleagues who among them have worked with and helped build these 0:04:29.840,0:04:36.560 agencies, these ventures, it's a very exciting group. The challenge we have in just this very brief 0:04:36.560,0:04:43.600 55 minutes is to open up these questions: what's happening in venture infrastructure, what's 0:04:43.600,0:04:49.440 interesting, what's noteworthy, what's worrisome. I'm very grateful to all three colleagues who've 0:04:49.440,0:04:55.440 joined us; the format that we'll do is I'll invite each to speak briefly about his or her 0:04:55.440,0:05:02.160 professional background, their current location and and answer a tough question which is what are 0:05:02.160,0:05:08.640 two developments, what are two key issues they see in the venture infrastructure space 0:05:09.200,0:05:14.960 based on their own institutional location, their own professional expertise, and I'm also 0:05:14.960,0:05:20.160 going to ask them to comment at that point two kind of key developments in venture infrastructure, 0:05:20.160,0:05:25.440 but also what's a trend that worries them, what's something they're noting with some concern or 0:05:25.440,0:05:30.320 some sense of whether we going in the right direction. We'll have a chance to hear from each of them. I'm 0:05:30.320,0:05:35.760 so delighted to have Hélène Huby join us from the Karmen Project, Nick Appleyard from ESA and 0:05:35.760,0:05:41.600 also Chris Blackerby from Astroscale. After that first round of questions we'll have a chance for 0:05:41.600,0:05:47.440 some back and forth and then a second round of questions. That second round really is anchored on 0:05:47.440,0:05:53.680 this issue of what are two key challenges they see facing the sector in this set of issues around 0:05:53.680,0:05:59.680 venture infrastructure, what are two key challenges they see and why do they think that, so in a sense 0:05:59.680,0:06:04.560 we have a chance to really probe the thinking and the interests and the insights of three very 0:06:04.560,0:06:10.080 distinguished colleagues. At that point we'll go over to you - our audience - and invite you to post 0:06:10.080,0:06:16.080 questions along the way and we'll have in those last 15 or 20 minutes a chance to really hear your 0:06:16.080,0:06:21.600 questions and your views. Again, I'm very grateful to the colleagues for joining us on the panel, 0:06:21.600,0:06:28.320 I want to appreciate and recognise our sponsors at Oxford Said, at Pembroke College, and Aero Ox which 0:06:28.320,0:06:33.600 is the student society in Oxford that is interested in aeronautics and all things having to do with 0:06:33.600,0:06:38.640 space. I also want to recognise the many colleagues who've helped us bring together this series, 0:06:39.360,0:06:43.600 our team at the Oxford Space Initiative and also many of you who've joined us 0:06:43.600,0:06:48.880 over these several sessions, and again I want to encourage everyone to feel free to be posting 0:06:48.880,0:06:54.880 questions and comments and observations in the chat; we have colleagues who are monitoring that 0:06:54.880,0:07:00.480 and will help us respond to your interests and questions. Okay, at this point I want to turn to 0:07:00.480,0:07:05.760 the panel again, I'll start with Hélène and then we'll go to Nick and then Chris, I'd like 0:07:05.760,0:07:10.560 to invite you each to say a minute or two about your own experience and your own perspective 0:07:10.560,0:07:14.240 and then we'll get right into that tough issue: what are the key developments you see 0:07:14.240,0:07:20.720 in venture infrastructure today, and also what's a worrisome trend? So Hélène, welcome and over to you. 0:07:22.000,0:07:27.440 Hi Marc, thank you very much for inviting me. So about my background: I'm currently 0:07:27.440,0:07:33.280 here as the Chairman of the Karmen Project which is a foundation I co-created to foster trust and 0:07:33.280,0:07:39.120 cooperation between the ones who shapes the future of space. In parallel to that I am working at 0:07:39.120,0:07:43.760 Airbus as the vice president Orion ESM. I'm in charge of the European Service Model which 0:07:43.760,0:07:48.880 will open contribution to the [...] and in parallel to Airbus also I'm active in the 0:07:48.880,0:07:54.960 investment side: I have a small investment boutique, double digit millions approximately, investing in 0:07:54.960,0:08:00.800 space tech startups at seed and Series A stage, and I've contributed to, funded, and I'm on the board 0:08:00.800,0:08:08.400 of Space Founders - which is a German/French space tech accelerator - so my background is in basically 0:08:08.400,0:08:14.160 investment, exploration and also non-profit to foster trust in space. That's perfect, thank 0:08:14.160,0:08:19.200 you very much Hélène. What do you see? You have a very rich vantage point across sectors 0:08:19.200,0:08:23.920 in civil society, in the commercial space, what do you see? What are two key developments you see in 0:08:23.920,0:08:28.720 this whole venture infrastructure space that you want to share with us? And what's a worrisome 0:08:28.720,0:08:35.200 trend as well? Two key developments, and I guess many of our panelist members here will 0:08:35.200,0:08:40.560 see the same, but one is of course the race of venture funding into space. Ten years ago we 0:08:40.560,0:08:45.200 were speaking about probably like double digit millions per year investing into space startups, 0:08:45.200,0:08:51.280 and now we speak about several billions invested into space startups and not only at early stage, 0:08:51.280,0:08:55.120 of course, but I think what's something very important that happened in the past month, in the 0:08:55.120,0:08:58.960 past years is really exit, because this was one of the questions that investors were asking all the 0:08:58.960,0:09:05.760 time: 'what is the exit?' And we've seen now that's emerging acquisition happening but also SPACs; 0:09:05.760,0:09:11.920 in recent months, for example, the SPAC of Astra, the SPAC of Momentous, the SPAC of Rocket Lab, 0:09:11.920,0:09:17.520 and I'm aware also about new SPACs arriving on the market, so I think in 10 years really, the 0:09:17.520,0:09:23.840 venture investment space has become professional and also credible because of this exit, so that's 0:09:23.840,0:09:31.200 one trend. The second one is, I think, the way space agencies fund their projects; it's 0:09:31.200,0:09:37.920 more based on - I would say - a public-private business model where the space agency would fund 0:09:37.920,0:09:42.400 the development but in the development plan they would put into competitions companies to make sure 0:09:42.400,0:09:47.520 that, at the end of the day, they really invest into the best company for the service they want to have. 0:09:48.160,0:09:53.040 Also they do not fund only development by step-by-step, one 0:09:53.040,0:10:00.240 mission, they basically buy a whole bunch of a service and there is a kind 0:10:00.240,0:10:05.440 of return investment behind that so private has also to share part of the burnout of the funding 0:10:05.440,0:10:10.640 to make the service happen and I think that's a second kind of big trend: space agencies putting 0:10:10.640,0:10:15.360 into competitions corporates and startups at the early phase of development and then when 0:10:15.360,0:10:20.800 the infrastructure is there paying for a service, much more than paying for a specific 0:10:20.800,0:10:25.840 mission, which gives much more freedom - of course - to the industry to be more efficient. 0:10:26.400,0:10:30.720 Yeah that's great, that's interesting and you've certainly seen across each of those sectors in 0:10:30.720,0:10:34.880 each of those pieces, you have a foot in each of those worlds, appreciate the breadth 0:10:34.880,0:10:39.840 of your vision. What are you concerned about? What's a trend that you think is worrisome or 0:10:39.840,0:10:46.240 we just need to pay more attention to? I see two trends; one is perhaps a 0:10:46.240,0:10:53.360 bit specific to Europe, I don't know but we tend to oppose startups and corporates, and I see 0:10:53.360,0:10:58.000 sometimes reactions like okay you're a big one, you don't need that contract, 0:10:58.000,0:11:01.440 or you are unable to produce another satellite et cetera and same with the style of 0:11:01.440,0:11:06.080 few small ones so that's not your area of business etc, and I think we need to go over that. 0:11:06.720,0:11:11.040 I was very happy in Europe when the European Space Agency gave a contract to Clear Space 0:11:11.040,0:11:17.200 the primary contract [...] to do active debris removal and I think, 0:11:17.200,0:11:21.200 Chris, I mean you were talking from us ... and you had the same kind of support from the 0:11:21.200,0:11:26.480 Japanese Space Agency and this is a huge mission and it was given to a start up a very early stage 0:11:27.360,0:11:32.320 so I think that's the first move towards that. Then speaking more from 0:11:32.320,0:11:38.160 a corporate perspective, because I'm also working for Airbus, I think it's really 0:11:38.160,0:11:42.480 a shame that corporates are perceived as not able to do things which are nimble 0:11:42.480,0:11:47.440 and Airbus doing [...], I think we've proven that we are able to do nimble or [...] so 0:11:48.640,0:11:51.920 these strengths opposing between corporate and [...] and 0:11:51.920,0:11:57.440 I think the way agencies fund and also corporate behaviour, we could go for much more cooperation that 0:11:57.440,0:12:03.280 would benefit the whole ecosystem. The second trend that we've been worried about is a very deep tech 0:12:04.080,0:12:08.880 investment. I think there is a very important role here for space agencies 0:12:09.440,0:12:14.800 to invest in very advanced technology speak about nuclear propulsion, for example, 0:12:14.800,0:12:19.280 the US are starting to do that right now with specifically nuclear propulsion, more and more 0:12:19.280,0:12:25.360 investment coming both from DARPA and from NASA, but I think in all in other areas of the world 0:12:25.360,0:12:30.640 it would be good that more and more space agency really think about long term, what are the key tech 0:12:30.640,0:12:36.480 we need and then invest much more money into that and have a clear separation between what can be 0:12:36.480,0:12:41.680 funded by the private sector and what shall be funded by the public money, and I think looking 0:12:41.680,0:12:46.080 back to the past we didn't have that distinction because there was no private funding for space or 0:12:46.080,0:12:50.480 very limited. But now that we have one, I think there is really a new important role for space 0:12:50.480,0:12:55.920 agencies to fund heavily key tech technologies that will never be funded by private sector 0:12:55.920,0:13:01.440 and on the contrary not funding stuff that can be provided by private sector. That's extremely 0:13:01.440,0:13:06.240 interesting, thank you, I think you're pointing to some opportunities that could be missed because 0:13:06.240,0:13:11.360 of the legacy understandings we have, both of what corporates do and what the public sector can do. I 0:13:11.360,0:13:16.080 think this is a theme that my colleague and our colleague Lucas Kello has flagged in fact, it's 0:13:16.080,0:13:21.280 really part of the very name of this series Smart Space; meaning the continued relevance of state 0:13:21.280,0:13:26.880 agencies of state space agencies and also the emerging technologies, the deep tech that you're 0:13:26.880,0:13:30.880 referring to. Thank you so much, it's extremely interesting and you've set a high bar now for all 0:13:30.880,0:13:36.400 of our panelists to come, so let me move on for a minute to Nick Appleyard who's coming to us 0:13:36.400,0:13:42.400 from the European Space Agency, and who really oversees a lot of the downstream applications. 0:13:42.400,0:13:48.160 Nick over to you and welcome; again, two developments, that a concern you might have. 0:13:48.160,0:13:54.080 Thanks Marc, well let's cover this from the the point of view of what it is that the 0:13:54.080,0:13:58.080 investment needs to go into and then we can see what the response the investment 0:13:58.080,0:14:04.080 community has to make to this. So if you start from the incumbency from 20 to 50 years ago this was 0:14:04.080,0:14:09.680 very much a government-led activity, government was the customer because the price tag for entry 0:14:09.680,0:14:13.520 was so high that that was the only way that you could get into the game - you needed billions - 0:14:14.240,0:14:19.280 and then the only people who could respond to that as suppliers were the big aerospace and 0:14:19.280,0:14:24.240 defense contractors, so you had to be Boeing or Lockheed or you had to be Airbus or Thales 0:14:24.240,0:14:30.160 otherwise you weren't big enough to supply to those kind of contracts. That 0:14:30.160,0:14:36.800 is being challenged now from two directions. So the first is this idea that 0:14:37.440,0:14:42.960 you can actually come in large with something which is completely disruptive, a new 0:14:42.960,0:14:48.320 technology, a disruptive innovation approach and you can sweep aside that incumbency and 0:14:48.960,0:14:52.720 reset the rules of the game, and this is not unique 0:14:52.720,0:14:57.840 to space but it's been happening in space, as I think we're all aware, the past few years, 0:14:58.480,0:15:05.360 but in order to do this you have to take a big technology risk and a big market risk and 0:15:05.360,0:15:10.240 you need to be going in big enough in order to displace the incumbents, which means you're 0:15:10.240,0:15:17.280 making a very big capital investment up front so you have to - it's go big or go home - and 0:15:17.280,0:15:23.920 the kind of everybody wanted to be Steve Jobs when they wanted to do this, then 0:15:23.920,0:15:28.000 for a short while they wanted to be Travis Kalanick, and now they want to be Elon Musk, 0:15:30.080,0:15:34.960 so that's one challenge to the incumbency. Then there's a second challenge 0:15:34.960,0:15:39.040 to the incumbency at the moment which is quite opposite to that, which is about a 0:15:39.040,0:15:43.600 diversification of the actors in the market, more people are able to enter the market because the 0:15:43.600,0:15:48.800 price point has come down very considerably so now you can build and 0:15:48.800,0:15:53.840 launch a spacecraft with a company which is only capitalised to single-digit millions 0:15:54.640,0:16:00.960 so we're talking about seed capital and Series A capital, and so now we're developing a market of 0:16:00.960,0:16:07.520 multiple suppliers supplying to multiple customers and that's a very different challenge to the 0:16:07.520,0:16:13.120 incumbency but it's happening at the same time and this is where I come 0:16:13.120,0:16:19.360 into this story. My own background is in the the digital services, digital sector innovation. 0:16:19.360,0:16:24.800 I was working in UK government, in Innovate UK leading the programmes in that area. I looked at what 0:16:24.800,0:16:29.520 was happening in the space industry and you can see that same kind of disruption that was 0:16:29.520,0:16:35.760 happening 10 years prior in web services is starting to happen in the space industry now: 0:16:35.760,0:16:42.240 everybody is getting a more democratised access to the data to the telecommunications 0:16:42.240,0:16:47.600 capability, to the location signals which are on all our phones and you build a market in the 0:16:47.600,0:16:53.600 digital services which make use of the satellites and that is now starting to work its way, I 0:16:53.600,0:16:58.320 mean this space department's upstream, it's working its way back towards the infrastructure level so 0:16:58.320,0:17:04.480 so I came in order to help develop that market, both from the demand side of the non-space 0:17:04.480,0:17:09.680 customers who are users of the satellite data and then to make sure that we have a market which is 0:17:09.680,0:17:16.880 able to supply to those on the space side, and that market frontier is moving; 0:17:17.520,0:17:23.200 it started with the the system integrators and the data companies then it started to move 0:17:23.200,0:17:27.040 into the satellite operators themselves and the satellite manufacturers because of 0:17:28.160,0:17:33.600 the prices, now it's getting into the rockets and the launch, it's going to get into the in-orbit 0:17:33.600,0:17:39.200 servicing of the people who have spacecraft who are then providing services to one another 0:17:39.200,0:17:42.960 and we'll come on to Chris in a moment, maybe you can pick up on that thing, and it's so slowly 0:17:42.960,0:17:48.960 moving further away from the planet's surface that actually there's - at the market dynamic - multiple 0:17:48.960,0:17:53.200 suppliers talking to multiple customers. So those two things are happening both at the same 0:17:53.200,0:17:58.720 time. In terms of something that worries me around all of this, from a European perspective, 0:18:00.240,0:18:04.480 whichever one of those approaches you're taking we have a bit of a gap in the European risk finance 0:18:04.480,0:18:11.360 market, and this is not unique to space and it's not new, but when you're trying to raise 20 to 0:18:11.360,0:18:17.600 50 million for a venture when we're still not well served in Europe. Up to 20 million we're very 0:18:17.600,0:18:23.120 well served, there's great seed capital, great Series A venture provision - particularly in 0:18:23.120,0:18:28.320 London - but all across Europe, but beyond that, we're seeing companies that are European grown 0:18:29.280,0:18:34.320 get to that point and having to look to the US or to Asia to raise their 0:18:34.320,0:18:38.080 finance, and that's a concern for Europe if you're worried about European competitiveness, 0:18:38.080,0:18:43.040 you're worried about your sovereignty. And we're seeing the European institutions as a 0:18:43.040,0:18:48.800 result were starting to respond to that, so the European Investment Bank with its venture finance 0:18:49.760,0:18:54.080 is working in that space and we've been been talking to them to say, 0:18:54.880,0:18:59.520 look, let us help you to understand the risks of investment and providing debt financing 0:18:59.520,0:19:04.560 at that scale because actually the technology risk is maybe not as big as you think it is, 0:19:04.560,0:19:08.240 and actually the businesses are not as exotic as you think they are. 0:19:08.240,0:19:13.600 A rocket company is a logistics company, a telecom company is a telecom company and you know 0:19:13.600,0:19:19.200 how to invest into those so you can lend into these into these companies, and equally quite 0:19:19.200,0:19:24.880 recently the EU - through the European Commission - has launched a quite well financed 0:19:24.880,0:19:29.440 space programme and within that there's an entrepreneurship section called Cassini, 0:19:29.440,0:19:34.800 and then they'd be offering risk finance on an equity basis, again at 0:19:34.800,0:19:39.280 at that same kind of price point, so these European Institutions are trying to step into that 0:19:39.280,0:19:44.320 gap to fill what otherwise exists as a gap in the private funding market in Europe. 0:19:46.080,0:19:50.000 Nick, that's extremely interesting again thank you. Both you and Hélène have signalled 0:19:50.640,0:19:57.120 ways that the space sector is exemplary of broader trends in finance - the role of 0:19:57.120,0:20:02.720 state actors - and also unique and pioneering. I hear in both of your comments this kind 0:20:02.720,0:20:10.000 of recognition that space is like any other domain for new investment, for the struggles over 0:20:10.000,0:20:15.120 different levels of funding, for the role of state actors, and I also hear you both saying that space 0:20:15.120,0:20:20.880 is unique, right, so I think that tension is a good tension. At Oxford we tend to do research on - and 0:20:20.880,0:20:27.520 often teach about - that interplay of technologies and markets and organisational capabilities and I 0:20:27.520,0:20:33.280 think the issues that you're raising around the legacy incumbents and the new opportunities 0:20:33.280,0:20:39.440 really anchored in helping funding agencies appreciate what is familiar about space 0:20:39.440,0:20:46.800 investments are extremely timely and extremely telling. I'm also mindful of the the concern you raise that a 0:20:46.800,0:20:53.280 lot of those financial agencies and institutions really do still see space as an exotic area - 0:20:53.280,0:20:58.720 unfamiliar and unbounded - so a great caveat in really practical terms. 0:20:58.720,0:21:05.760 Thank you so much for that. I'd like to turn to Chris Blackerby, who's CEO of 0:21:05.760,0:21:14.080 of Astroscale, a very prominent and very provocative Japanese founded venture, 0:21:14.800,0:21:18.880 Chris, over to you again for a little bit of your perspective. You're coming to us very late in the 0:21:18.880,0:21:24.400 day from Tokyo, I believe, and a chance to hear a perspective that complements and also 0:21:24.400,0:21:29.520 contrasts with some of the European experience and some of the North American experience, so 0:21:29.520,0:21:34.640 Chris over to you: two key developments and a worrisome trend from your perspective. 0:21:36.080,0:21:42.320 First of all thanks to Marc and to Oxford Space here for 0:21:42.320,0:21:48.080 leading this, it's such a great panel to be on and I'm already a sorry that we only have an 0:21:48.080,0:21:54.240 hour, I was looking at my clock and hearing all of the comments from Hélène and Nick, and 0:21:54.240,0:21:58.880 to hear about this, it's just there's so much to talk about. So everything that that you both said 0:21:58.880,0:22:05.360 I think we have a lot of conversation to go through on this, as you said - Marc - 0:22:05.360,0:22:11.440 I'm here in Tokyo, Japan, I've been out here for 0:22:11.440,0:22:16.640 close to nine years, five of which I was with NASA as the NASA attache at 0:22:16.640,0:22:24.320 the U.S embassy here in Tokyo and prior to that 10 years in DC with NASA, so focused a lot on 0:22:24.320,0:22:29.680 international cooperation and building space cooperation from the government side. 0:22:29.680,0:22:35.040 For the last three and a half - nearly four - years I've been CEO of Astroscale which is now 0:22:35.040,0:22:41.760 a global company, started in Singapore and Japan, spread around the globe, now to US, UK and Israel. 0:22:42.560,0:22:48.880 One point to make from the start is that this idea that sometimes gets 0:22:48.880,0:22:53.840 talked about about, new space and old space and government-funded versus venture-funded, 0:22:54.560,0:22:59.360 and a lot of times I think there's a talk of there being a split but as both of the initial speakers 0:22:59.360,0:23:06.160 mentioned that is a fallacy: one cannot exist without the other and as we proceed, 0:23:07.120,0:23:12.560 New Space is going to continue to need the support and funding from the traditional, 0:23:12.560,0:23:17.680 from the traditional government-led and and large industry space, and vice versa the 0:23:17.680,0:23:21.840 government-led space is going to need that innovation from the new space so it's really 0:23:21.840,0:23:28.800 important, I think to keep focused on that. As for a couple of trends - positive and 0:23:28.800,0:23:35.760 worrying - on the former side, the positive it was mentioned by Nick particularly but 0:23:35.760,0:23:41.920 but also Hélène, this idea of servicing and reusability and that is a trend that we see, 0:23:42.720,0:23:48.880 it's not going to stop. Spacex has demonstrated it, Blue Origin's demonstrating it, so many 0:23:48.880,0:23:56.880 others are focused on this. We're focused on it, we see a huge business opportunity on 0:23:56.880,0:24:04.080 servicing and that means debris removal, it means refueling, it means life extension, 0:24:04.080,0:24:09.440 we've seen what Northrop Grumman has done with space logistics and servicing a satellite in geo, 0:24:09.440,0:24:17.040 we see that as really the future, it's no more a throwaway culture of we launch and we get rid of: 0:24:17.040,0:24:25.920 we launch, we move, we reuse, we service and that's just going to continue to stuff that ... 0:24:25.920,0:24:32.960 it's the science fictiony stuff is no longer going to be science fictiony: recycling in space, 0:24:32.960,0:24:38.080 foundries in space, that stuff's coming. Now, that's a little bit farther down the line but 0:24:38.080,0:24:42.240 we're taking the first steps up that mountain right now and so that's a trend that 0:24:42.240,0:24:49.520 we see has already been demonstrated and we see that continuing. Going last always 0:24:49.520,0:24:53.520 has the problem of the great ideas were already said which they were great. 0:24:54.800,0:24:58.320 One of the ones I wouldn't mention though is that diverse funding is 0:24:58.320,0:25:02.320 something I had thought of as well and that Hélène particularly mentioned 0:25:02.320,0:25:07.760 this idea that there's venture, there's government, there's SPACs, there's so much going on. We are 0:25:07.760,0:25:13.280 almost entirely funded by Japanese venture funding which is rare, I mean if you think about 0:25:13.840,0:25:19.920 Japan and entrepreneurship don't tend to go hand in hand but we've been funded almost entirely by 0:25:19.920,0:25:26.240 Japanese venture so that's been a really positive trend, this diverse funding portfolio. And then 0:25:26.240,0:25:30.880 collaboration: I'd say everybody recognises that this is a nascent 0:25:30.880,0:25:38.240 industry and there's still a lot to prove and so the competition or the animosity or 0:25:38.240,0:25:44.240 between companies, especially on the smaller scale, that the real startups, we don't see that, 0:25:44.240,0:25:49.920 we see a lot of cooperation recognising that we're not going to succeed without 0:25:49.920,0:25:58.080 without working together. A quick note on it on a potentially worrying trend is I 0:25:58.080,0:26:04.240 guess I'd say the capacity - what's the market going to support? When I see what's out there - 0:26:04.240,0:26:09.040 and we see it's going to be big, obviously, we wouldn't be in this business if we didn't, 0:26:09.040,0:26:16.560 but there are a lot of constellations, we know them all. Spacex, 0:26:16.560,0:26:23.040 Starling, Telesat, One Web, Amazon, Kuiper AST - I mean they're all focused on various aspects of it 0:26:23.040,0:26:27.600 but really communications from LEO: will the market be able to support all of those and all of this 0:26:27.600,0:26:35.120 funding that goes in there, is it going to be able to see a return and see some 0:26:35.120,0:26:40.560 positive progress and we're still at the front end of that. Launchers as well, seeing all 0:26:40.560,0:26:46.400 of these, all of this funding going into launchers and we see a lot of positive future but 0:26:47.120,0:26:52.720 still hasn't been proven yet so we're waiting to see is can the market support these dozens of 0:26:52.720,0:26:58.560 of on-demand launchers from the big ones from the Blue Origins and Spacex, all the way down to the Rocket 0:26:58.560,0:27:04.560 Labs. So that's something that I'd say 0:27:04.560,0:27:08.560 as a company that's looking to service all of these, it's something that we think about 0:27:08.560,0:27:14.560 a lot, making sure that that can be supported. Chris thank you, I think you know you've, and this is 0:27:14.560,0:27:21.360 really Astroscale's sweet spot, the LEO, the low earth orbit space is itself interesting, that whole 0:27:21.360,0:27:29.440 gamut as you said of initiatives activities and innovation really transforming that domain. I'm 0:27:29.440,0:27:34.800 also struck again, thank you for very thoughtful comments, done well in third place right, 0:27:34.800,0:27:40.480 but very thoughtful comments that also remind us how much of this is in process, how we're exploring - 0:27:40.480,0:27:46.240 as you said - the range of servicing potentials in space, the range of businesses that are going to 0:27:46.240,0:27:51.520 develop the range of activities and I think that like the other panellists you've also underscored that 0:27:51.520,0:27:58.240 rich set and diverse set of collaborations, you mentioned old space/new space, as colleagues may 0:27:58.240,0:28:05.520 know in the audience, it's a very familiar policy frame that often unusefully distinguishes the role 0:28:05.520,0:28:11.120 of state agencies and government funding from an era that's more prominently focused on commercial 0:28:11.120,0:28:16.240 funding, venture capital and space ventures and Chris, I appreciate you really making that point 0:28:16.240,0:28:22.640 that literally the name of this series, Smart Space is our effort, Lucas Kello, my colleagues here at 0:28:22.640,0:28:28.720 Oxford and others to really build a new policy frame that does exactly what you're saying, 0:28:28.720,0:28:35.040 that integrates and recognises the complementary roles of both state actors and government funding, 0:28:35.040,0:28:42.640 those legacy defense contractors and other large agencies that Hélène spoke to and also the 0:28:42.640,0:28:48.720 variety and diversity of this new era from Spacex, Blue Ocean and so forth to the 0:28:48.720,0:28:53.360 very contemporary ventures, I think that's a thread so thank you all three panellists - exciting, 0:28:53.920,0:28:58.240 provocative, interesting, important, and I appreciate that the trends you pointed 0:28:58.240,0:29:04.080 to is worrisome are both mixed opportunities, they're both potentially very exciting and - as 0:29:04.080,0:29:09.920 Nick said very thoughtfully - we may be missing things or missing opportunities because of 0:29:09.920,0:29:16.800 the inertia from prior conceptions of both what a corporation can do and also what government actors, 0:29:16.800,0:29:21.840 what state actors can do. I'd like to to turn this now to a little bit more looking 0:29:21.840,0:29:27.840 forward and and grappling with this, the prompt question I have for each of you is what 0:29:27.840,0:29:34.080 are the kind of most pressing challenges for this innovation in the venture infrastructure? There are 0:29:34.080,0:29:39.520 many challenges and we've heard some of them already facing the space sector over all over. 0:29:39.520,0:29:44.880 I'd like you to think for a second, what are the challenges you see really in facing innovation 0:29:44.880,0:29:51.600 in this infrastructure space, fo space, and why. So again I'm asking you here to kind of give us a 0:29:51.600,0:29:57.520 little bit of your own analysis, your own thinking on what you see as the key challenges, the places 0:29:57.520,0:30:04.400 we want to put young talent and expertise from our research students at Oxford, our executives, 0:30:04.400,0:30:09.280 our MBAs and others. Where do we want to put talent and why do we want to put the talent there 0:30:10.640,0:30:15.760 from your perspective? So I'm going to actually start with Chris if that's okay and then we'll 0:30:15.760,0:30:20.960 go to Nick and then back to Hélène to make some closing remarks and again let me encourage our 0:30:20.960,0:30:26.640 audience to be posting questions; our team here are compiling those questions so as you 0:30:26.640,0:30:33.040 listen and hear interesting points please welcome to put those in the chat. So Chris back to you for 0:30:33.600,0:30:37.760 that sort of forward-looking, what are the challenges that you see, the key 0:30:37.760,0:30:43.840 challenges in infrastructure, venture infrastructure development and why. 0:30:43.840,0:30:50.560 I'll try to be as insightful as my colleagues and steal the good answers by going first. Good idea. I 0:30:50.560,0:30:54.880 don't think I'll be able to do that but I'll do my Competition is alive and well, Chris, competition. 0:30:57.040,0:30:59.520 So I think the first one I would say 0:31:00.560,0:31:08.080 is money. Innovation and R&D costs money, and that sounds right, 0:31:08.080,0:31:14.080 of course it does, but Nick made the point about the financing sector in Europe 0:31:14.080,0:31:18.480 and how it can get up to the 20 million or so range, but beyond that is tough. 0:31:19.280,0:31:24.240 In space you need that, especially if you're talking about doing launch or 0:31:24.240,0:31:30.800 satellite development, I mean building out a bus or a launch vehicle it's way more than that so 0:31:30.800,0:31:37.760 to develop an innovative solution and to dive into an R&D project, it costs a lot 0:31:37.760,0:31:44.320 and so one of the things that we have to do at Astroscale, to grapple with, is 0:31:45.680,0:31:52.240 creating a commercially sensitive company that is sensitive to costs and development but also 0:31:52.240,0:32:00.000 doing that for R&D. So R&D traditionally was done by huge aerospace companies and governments and so 0:32:00.000,0:32:06.160 they had that that pocket budget that was focused on IRAD, internal R&D, as a 0:32:06.160,0:32:10.160 startup company that's what we're doing, I mean we're trying to build a company based on that. 0:32:10.160,0:32:16.880 So that part, I think is a real challenge, making sure that we're able to get the capital 0:32:16.880,0:32:22.320 necessary to build out an innovative solution that's also really commercially competitive 0:32:22.320,0:32:27.680 that's a real challenge. One other one that I'd say, and the way you framed it Marc was 0:32:27.680,0:32:33.040 good, thinking about how to look at global, at the workforce who's interested in this 0:32:33.040,0:32:41.280 going forward, I'd say that this issues of regulation policy globally is one that we can't 0:32:41.280,0:32:46.800 ignore, and that's a real challenge as we look at innovation and we're an international company, we 0:32:46.800,0:32:51.840 have people in five different countries - couple hundred now around the world - we're an engineering 0:32:51.840,0:32:58.000 company obviously, we're building out the technical solution, we have a strong policy team in London 0:32:58.000,0:33:04.160 in Tokyo and DC, so we have got people who are focused on answering these policy questions and 0:33:04.160,0:33:10.880 as we're looking at innovating in an orbital environment, that is a commons area as it's 0:33:10.880,0:33:17.120 commonly referred to, thinking about how to address - not just the technical innovations - 0:33:17.120,0:33:24.320 but the policy innovations that are going to make this ecosystem sustainable is really important. 0:33:24.320,0:33:27.760 Chris, thank you that's so interesting, I'm glad you mentioned the idea of the commons, I think 0:33:27.760,0:33:32.720 something of great concern to us and many others is the work of Elinor Ostrom, Nobel Prize Winner, 0:33:33.600,0:33:38.960 on commons governance and that may well be what links a lot of our interest in the space sector 0:33:38.960,0:33:44.720 is space, like some other key issues, really is a problem for the commons. How do we begin 0:33:44.720,0:33:50.880 to develop meaningful rules of the game where all the actors can agree enough to be able to 0:33:50.880,0:33:56.880 preserve and steward for the long-term space, I know the work you're doing at Astroscale on 0:33:56.880,0:34:04.800 debris is one of those commons problems: how do we make sure that zone of the 0:34:04.800,0:34:11.520 orbits remains viable and transportable in the face of so much debris, so appreciate that 0:34:11.520,0:34:15.680 particular concern. I also appreciate you're raising the question of changing expertise. 0:34:15.680,0:34:22.240 For those of you in the audience our episode two a few weeks ago - led by my colleague Eamonn Molloy - 0:34:22.240,0:34:28.000 really took up this question of professional identities, the changing skill set 0:34:28.000,0:34:32.400 in the space sector, what kinds of expertise are needed and what does it mean - as you said, Chris - to 0:34:32.400,0:34:38.480 be an engineering company but also interested in innovation and pioneering developments 0:34:38.480,0:34:44.320 in policy; so that question of the human capital, the human infrastructure in this changing 0:34:44.320,0:34:49.440 ecosystem is extremely interesting, Chris, thank you. I'm going to move over to Nick now and ask 0:34:49.440,0:34:54.880 him to come in on the same issue: what are a couple of challenges you see for innovation in venture 0:34:54.880,0:35:00.640 infrastructure per se and and why do you think that's important? 0:35:01.440,0:35:06.480 So first I'd kind of endorse what you're saying about the commons. It's a bit wild west out 0:35:06.480,0:35:10.720 there at the moment because things are moving and evolving quite quickly and a lot 0:35:10.720,0:35:16.960 of people who don't have a background in this sector themselves operating in space, 0:35:16.960,0:35:24.000 and the regulatory environment has not kept up with that, the standards and cooperation 0:35:24.000,0:35:29.600 has not kept up with that, and the price pressures from things like insurance have not 0:35:29.600,0:35:34.080 kept up with that, and so there's a lot of evolution which has to happen quite quickly 0:35:34.080,0:35:39.920 in the market in order to stabilise that situation so I totally endorse that. Another 0:35:40.720,0:35:47.840 kind of challenge that we're grappling with at the moment is about 0:35:49.120,0:35:55.520 breaking away from this incumbency and breaking away from the legacies that we have in place 0:35:55.520,0:36:01.680 without trashing the investments that are made in the past, right. So a lot of good work 0:36:01.680,0:36:06.880 has been done in the past in building both physical infrastructures but also institutional 0:36:06.880,0:36:13.360 infrastructures and they need to evolve quite quickly in order to stay in place with 0:36:13.360,0:36:20.560 what's happening in the privately funded market. So let me take two sides of that then; a 0:36:20.560,0:36:26.080 few examples which are on my desk at the moment around commercialisation of assets, expensive 0:36:26.080,0:36:32.000 capital assets which have been invested in in the past, but not for the purpose of 0:36:32.720,0:36:40.160 being offered to a commercial sale, so the lab facilities on the international space station - 0:36:40.160,0:36:45.440 they're there, they've been bought and paid for already - but now 0:36:45.440,0:36:51.680 you can see the end of life and the end of the public financing for the space station 0:36:51.680,0:36:56.480 coming up, we need to now start to bring in some commercial customers and some commercial business 0:36:56.480,0:37:01.760 into those facilities. So if you're in the pharmaceutical industry, life sciences industry or 0:37:01.760,0:37:07.520 if you're manufacturing some interesting exotic material or maybe if you're assembling something 0:37:07.520,0:37:11.920 which is going to be used by someone like Chris in the space sector itself, but 0:37:11.920,0:37:16.720 can we adapt that existing infrastructure for that purpose? And the same in the data 0:37:16.720,0:37:21.120 infrastructure; there's a lot of Earth observation data infrastructures which have 0:37:21.120,0:37:25.520 been developed for environmental monitoring, climate science and things like this, can they 0:37:25.520,0:37:30.240 be adapted and find new commercial outlets? They weren't originally developed for that purpose 0:37:30.800,0:37:35.120 but can you take something which is pre-existing and certain and can start to commercialise 0:37:35.120,0:37:39.120 it, so that's one of the challenges that we have in order to adapt the past into the 0:37:39.120,0:37:44.960 future. And then I say on the institutional infrastructure, and I speak from 0:37:44.960,0:37:50.640 the perspective of European Space Agency here now, we have to adapt and we have to adapt 0:37:50.640,0:37:53.920 the offer that we're making to the industry because the industry is changing so quickly, 0:37:54.720,0:38:00.560 and Hélène referred to it at the beginning in terms of the public-private partnership models 0:38:01.760,0:38:06.320 we're developing here where we co-invest alongside industry, we risk -hare alongside industry, 0:38:07.440,0:38:11.120 both of the very kind of large-scale infrastructure investments but all the 0:38:11.120,0:38:16.160 way down to the startup scale - and this is where my own programme area operates - 0:38:16.720,0:38:21.440 is how can we just get people over the initial hump of getting a product to 0:38:21.440,0:38:25.680 market and getting a company which is able to offer that product to the market and then step 0:38:25.680,0:38:29.360 back, and then institutions step back and let the private capital markets take things 0:38:29.360,0:38:34.480 forward from there? These are the kind of supports that the institutional infrastructure now 0:38:34.480,0:38:38.640 needs needs to be offering, that the space agencies have to be operating, and we 0:38:38.640,0:38:43.120 have to move away from the model that we are the customer on behalf of the governments who back us, 0:38:44.080,0:38:46.880 we have to stop being the customer and we have to become the facilitator. 0:38:48.720,0:38:56.720 Again, super interesting and timely, Nick, this question of how this whole institutional apparatus 0:38:56.720,0:39:02.320 takes stock, reflects, notices - these are at the heart of innovation, those are the 0:39:02.320,0:39:08.640 skill sets for innovation and I'm struck by your saying how ESA is in the midst of doing just that. 0:39:08.640,0:39:11.840 I'd be curious and again maybe in the questions we have time for this, 0:39:11.840,0:39:17.920 who are the partners in that, what does it mean to reflect in that institutionally thoughtful way, 0:39:17.920,0:39:23.280 to understand the legacy of the history and the learning and the pioneering work and also to 0:39:23.280,0:39:29.360 integrate that in this reflective way with going forward again? As you and all the colleagues 0:39:29.360,0:39:36.080 are saying, new forms of engagement, new kinds of cooperation, new initiatives that are trying 0:39:36.080,0:39:43.520 out and pioneering ideas from other sectors and also using the challenges in space to do that so 0:39:43.520,0:39:49.680 again I hear here and I'll just say here with Hélène and with Nick and with Chris, all 0:39:49.680,0:39:55.600 three of you are unique in bringing multi-sector positions, you've each worked across the different 0:39:55.600,0:40:01.920 pieces of the space ecosystem and I think that gives you each a very rich view. 0:40:02.720,0:40:08.400 I'd like to come back to Hélène now for a final set of comments for her, again 0:40:08.400,0:40:14.560 she led us out today with a very high quality and and challenging set of issues. Hélène, back to you 0:40:14.560,0:40:19.920 now to take up this question what are the big challenges you see in innovation infrastructure, 0:40:19.920,0:40:25.440 the venture infrastructure for innovation in the sector and again how are you thinking 0:40:25.440,0:40:31.040 about that? What enters into your analysis? Hélène, over to you please. Okay, thank you Marc, and of 0:40:31.040,0:40:36.320 course it's difficult to pass after Nick and Chris, but I'd like to to mention two, basically 0:40:36.880,0:40:40.960 another one - and this was mentioned actually already by both Chris and Nick - these are 0:40:40.960,0:40:46.960 regulation stuff, I just would like to mention three very concrete areas where regulation - I think - 0:40:46.960,0:40:52.720 is especially needed. Number one - of course - is the debris, this is very clear. Number two - and this was 0:40:52.720,0:40:59.600 not mentioned so far - is let's say ground station and how we manage data, what we see now 0:40:59.600,0:41:04.000 is a very clear trend with the ground station as a service where big tech players, and it's really 0:41:04.000,0:41:09.920 great they are there because they are enablers for for space startups to basically put the service 0:41:10.480,0:41:16.640 on, but it means that these big tech players they're going to master not only a very 0:41:17.840,0:41:22.960 important percentage of data from the web but also very important percentage of the data from 0:41:22.960,0:41:29.200 space, and I think would be great to have a kind of regulation to, you know, they're providing 0:41:29.200,0:41:35.200 great services to space startups and corporates but the user of this data security, 0:41:35.200,0:41:39.520 how they can manipulate ... manipulate, that's - I think - an area where we 0:41:39.520,0:41:43.680 would need regulation, and then the third area I'd like to mention for regulation is of course 0:41:44.400,0:41:51.920 the space exploration where we see, currently, the US moving very fast, China then 0:41:51.920,0:41:58.560 allied with Russia also moving very fast with a set of regulations which is dated from 1967, 0:41:58.560,0:42:05.840 so not exactly adapted to our needs. Of course, the United States published recently the new 0:42:05.840,0:42:11.760 agreements of Artemis but as we all know not every nation has signed that and I think we lack, or 0:42:11.760,0:42:17.520 we miss an updated scheme which ideally would be signed by all the space powers so these are the 0:42:17.520,0:42:23.360 three areas where I think we need more regulation basically. Then the second trend - because that's 0:42:23.360,0:42:27.520 the first one was regulation - the second I'd like to mention is exploration because this is 0:42:27.520,0:42:33.520 of course at the heart of what I'm doing at Airbus working under the European service module and what 0:42:33.520,0:42:38.960 I see here is basically a very clear race about building the first step for 0:42:38.960,0:42:43.360 exploration which is logistics and Spacex, with Starship and the recent contract they got 0:42:43.360,0:42:47.760 with NASA they're going to build that, we're going to complement that with Orion bringing basically 0:42:47.760,0:42:53.120 humans back to the moon etc, but the real question of course, the question of how we're going to go 0:42:53.120,0:42:58.320 there is super important, it has to be solved in a very, let's say, as much as affordable manner 0:42:58.320,0:43:03.280 and this will matter, but then comes, okay, how are we going to live there and NASA of 0:43:03.280,0:43:09.520 course is working on that, same with the Chinese Space Agency etc and I fully understand 0:43:09.520,0:43:15.760 the race between the United States superpower and China/Russia as space superpowers, 0:43:16.320,0:43:20.000 and also I strongly believe Europe needs to have a very important place here but okay that's another 0:43:20.000,0:43:25.040 debate, so I fully understand that there'll be a race between these two space superpowers 0:43:25.040,0:43:28.960 and there'll be a race for water - which is going to be the kind of the fuel for space for life - 0:43:28.960,0:43:33.520 and also for propellant, that's absolutely clear but I also strongly believe that there are areas 0:43:33.520,0:43:37.840 where cooperation would accelerate these new settlements - on the Moon first and then on Mars - 0:43:38.640,0:43:46.320 and I don't see too much actually, discussions of forums can be secret or not secret, 0:43:46.960,0:43:53.840 where the space powers can discuss about what are the areas where it makes sense to cooperate 0:43:54.480,0:43:59.200 so that we accelerate and they are clear there are areas where there'll be competition like water. I 0:43:59.200,0:44:02.880 strongly believe there'll be competition for water but just take for example the mapping 0:44:02.880,0:44:07.840 of the Moon in detail; that's, for example, an area where perhaps it is worth to cooperate 0:44:08.480,0:44:13.200 so I would very much welcome more discussions, very concrete discussions 0:44:13.200,0:44:18.480 between space superpowesr about what are the areas where it makes sense to cooperate and 0:44:18.480,0:44:23.520 what very concrete projects we could fund together and when you look back in history 0:44:23.520,0:44:28.240 let's not forget that initial space station was built at a time where we had the Cold War on earth 0:44:28.240,0:44:33.520 so history tells us it's feasible to do so even at a time with very high political tensions. 0:44:34.080,0:44:39.040 Europe has probably a special role to play, perhaps triggering some initiatives 0:44:39.040,0:44:44.560 so that there can be very concrete talks between US and China about what are the areas where 0:44:44.560,0:44:49.840 you can cooperate and what concretely we could do in our very small programmes to get this started. 0:44:51.360,0:44:59.920 Hélène, thank you again, as ever you are signaling some incredibly core questions, thank you 0:44:59.920,0:45:06.720 very very much, thank you indeed for the range of your insights and expertise, we are 0:45:06.720,0:45:12.000 bombarded, were overwhelmed with questions from the audience and those questions really reflect the 0:45:12.000,0:45:17.440 kinds of themes you've raised. I'm just going to briefly summarise some of them and then invite you 0:45:17.440,0:45:23.680 to selectively respond as we go ahead. There are a number of questions on how do we - given the tension 0:45:23.680,0:45:29.280 between and then the value of collaboration and cooperation and the very real security challenges 0:45:29.280,0:45:36.400 and differences of national interest - how do we organise innovation globally in light of the 0:45:36.400,0:45:43.440 Cold War legacy, in light of the new or emerging China/US debate, so a set of questions 0:45:43.440,0:45:48.640 that point to how do we do these, how do we live and deliver on the potential of collaboration 0:45:48.640,0:45:54.080 and cooperation in a world that is still marked by complex economic and political and institutional 0:45:54.080,0:46:01.760 struggles? so Greg has raised this question, David and Milan a number of others, Charles 0:46:01.760,0:46:08.000 has raised this concretely in the case of China. I think another set of issues - and really this 0:46:08.000,0:46:13.120 comes from Madava in London - another set of issues are where do we go, what's 0:46:13.120,0:46:18.560 the best place for startups, what are the most promising fields or the most promising issues. 0:46:19.280,0:46:24.000 I think a third set of issues, and the questions really have to do with space debris, 0:46:24.000,0:46:29.120 one of our alums Greg Watson says how much of a future risk is debris and is enough 0:46:29.120,0:46:36.480 being done for effective deorbiting solutions, others have raised some similar questions . 0:46:36.480,0:46:41.840 And then there's a set of comments that - really Demiana has raised this question - she 0:46:41.840,0:46:46.080 says, quoting Nick, stop being the customer and start being the facilitator; all three 0:46:46.080,0:46:51.120 of you have raised questions around how incumbent organisations and institutions 0:46:51.680,0:46:56.960 in some ways have to practise in new ways, they have to reimagine what they do, what 0:46:56.960,0:47:04.160 their capabilities make possible. So this shift in core roles in this dramatically changed 0:47:04.160,0:47:10.000 ecosystem. So let me open up to all three of you, I think you're all seeing the same questions 0:47:10.000,0:47:15.200 that I'm seeing from the audience, let me ask you each give a response selectively to whatever you'd 0:47:15.200,0:47:19.920 like to respond to. We've got questions of broad international organisation cooperation 0:47:19.920,0:47:24.560 in light of very real national interests, we've got sort of how do we do innovation in 0:47:24.560,0:47:31.920 this broad space, how are incumbent agencies reimagining what they are and what they do and 0:47:31.920,0:47:37.120 kind of concrete questions, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm somebody who cares about space so where should I put 0:47:37.120,0:47:42.320 energy, where do I go that's interesting and promising. So please, Nick, how about if you start 0:47:42.320,0:47:48.480 and then Hélène and then Chris. Let me take on this question about 0:47:49.440,0:47:54.080 national - as opposed to international - somehow in tension with international approaches to these 0:47:54.080,0:48:00.000 things and one of the things I'm responsible for is the business incubation service of the 0:48:00.000,0:48:07.200 European Space Agency, so I mean we invest into business incubators in 60 locations in 0:48:07.200,0:48:13.600 20 countries all across Europe because the startup companies when they start it's a 0:48:13.600,0:48:17.520 local endeavour and they could certainly work on a sub-national basis, they can raise their seed 0:48:17.520,0:48:21.520 finance on a sub-national basis and they can get their technical support on that basis so 0:48:21.520,0:48:26.080 they don't need to be international at that stage, but then they join a market which is international 0:48:27.200,0:48:34.240 so then they want to join a network and they want to become part of a wider market and that 0:48:34.240,0:48:40.000 market has to have some kind of stability across multiple countries because otherwise it doesn't 0:48:40.000,0:48:44.560 act as a market, so then we start talking about the the market infrastructure, the standards and the 0:48:44.560,0:48:52.240 and the rules of engagement into the operation and for that you need 0:48:52.240,0:48:57.600 multilateral cooperation between private actors which means - and ideally you want 0:48:57.600,0:49:03.760 it on on a multi-national basis - so those two things somehow work in cooperation with one 0:49:03.760,0:49:09.360 another, depending on what stage of evolution you're at or how much you stand 0:49:09.360,0:49:15.120 back and look at an economic perspective rather than the individual company perspective. 0:49:18.320,0:49:23.920 There are some infrastructures where it just makes sense to only do it once, the 0:49:23.920,0:49:28.560 big expensive foundational infrastructures that everybody can benefit from. One that we're 0:49:28.560,0:49:32.880 working on in ESA at the moment is there's lots of people wanting to put 0:49:32.880,0:49:38.880 boots on the Moon right now in search of water, for example, search of resources of those kinds 0:49:40.240,0:49:42.720 they're going to be driving around their 0:49:43.280,0:49:47.680 their vehicles, they're going to be putting their habitations down, they're going to be digging holes, 0:49:47.680,0:49:50.560 there are some supporting infrastructures that are going to be needed for that, 0:49:51.440,0:49:55.360 for example in telecommunications and navigation the same kind of satellite infrastructures 0:49:55.360,0:49:59.440 that you need on Earth you're going to need them on the Moon, right, because otherwise your 0:49:59.440,0:50:04.000 your automatic vehicle will disappear over the next hill and you'll never see it again 0:50:05.200,0:50:10.880 so you need that kind of infrastructure, you only want to build it once. 0:50:10.880,0:50:15.600 You put a few satellites around the moon for the benefit of everybody and that kind of thing can be 0:50:15.600,0:50:21.120 a multinational cooperation still, it can be in the same spirit that we built the 0:50:21.120,0:50:26.160 the International Space Station - everybody comes together and you build this once and then 0:50:26.160,0:50:30.400 we all become users of it - so that there are plenty of opportunities for internationalism, 0:50:30.400,0:50:34.880 multinationalism in here as well as opportunities for things within a national perspective. 0:50:35.840,0:50:40.240 And then just finally to close on this, there is very a national security 0:50:40.240,0:50:45.520 layer over this and there are particular issues of sovereignty that 0:50:45.520,0:50:53.920 people have perspectives on and so there is some pressure sometimes in order to put a 0:50:53.920,0:50:58.880 wall around things which is not initiatives and it seemed to be strategic capabilities. 0:50:58.880,0:51:03.760 So take an example in UK at the moment, UK is trying to build an independent launch capability 0:51:04.480,0:51:09.840 so that it doesn't have to rely on the multinational corporations in order to get its 0:51:09.840,0:51:15.760 own satellites into orbit. Some of these things are seen as being sufficiently strategic that you 0:51:15.760,0:51:21.600 have to do them on a national basis or whatever your political boundary is. Yeah thank you, 0:51:21.600,0:51:27.040 that's helpful, that's great, let me ask Hélène to jump in also with some of her views on 0:51:27.040,0:51:33.200 these issues; again, we've got a rich set of issues - cooperation, debris removal - what's exciting to 0:51:33.200,0:51:38.720 you, where should I go as an entrepreneur, I'll hand over to you. Okay so perhaps I'll 0:51:38.720,0:51:42.800 take the way, should I go as an entrepreneur and then come back to the international cooperation. 0:51:43.840,0:51:50.000 I'd like to make the comparison between the way space is currently being developed or 0:51:50.000,0:51:56.000 is developing and the way internet was growing in the past 20 years approximately, and we had 0:51:56.000,0:52:01.040 various phases with the government of internet; we had internet 1.0 and then 2.0 and then 3.0 0:52:01.040,0:52:07.120 et cetera. And I think the same stuff is a bit kind of happening into space. 0:52:07.840,0:52:13.600 Space can 1.0 with the emergence of the startups and we have a very very important 0:52:13.600,0:52:21.440 focus on basically making space affordable, I think that's really kind of space 1.0, it's 0:52:21.440,0:52:26.800 making space affordable with the launcher industry being completely transformed in the past 15 years, 0:52:26.800,0:52:31.360 also with the satellites constellation, also with the way we built satellites like 0:52:31.360,0:52:38.480 SEO productions, also with the usage more about costs, and so everything 0:52:38.480,0:52:44.800 that basically makes space affordable so now this is kind of in the process of being done, 0:52:44.800,0:52:51.680 or I wouldn't say done but we have clearly in this phase 1.0 the big players they are still, as 0:52:52.480,0:52:57.200 I think Chris was mentioned, questions about how the market would look like and then the end 0:52:57.200,0:53:01.280 would market be able to stay with all of these players I think certainly not because that's 0:53:01.280,0:53:04.960 also very common when you look at development industries, you have bunch of players and at the 0:53:04.960,0:53:10.960 end just a few players who are remaining but kind of the trend of going to space is now 0:53:10.960,0:53:15.520 much more affordable than before. So what's the 2.0 that is coming right now? 0:53:15.520,0:53:18.960 And this is the question, I would ask if I would be an entrepreneur, that's the question I 0:53:18.960,0:53:24.000 asked myself - how do I build on the shoulders of the ones who have made space affordable - and here 0:53:24.000,0:53:30.320 indeed you have all the orbits, it's now affordable to go to orbit, so what are 0:53:30.320,0:53:34.160 you going to do, what are you going to do in orbit, okay you're going indeed to remove debris 0:53:34.160,0:53:39.040 but you're going to manufacture, you're going to recycle, you're going to build stuff there etc so 0:53:39.040,0:53:45.680 that's that's one area. Another area is okay space is now affordable from earth to orbit but then 0:53:45.680,0:53:53.040 orbit to the Moon that's still not affordable, and we see very very amazing infrastructures being 0:53:53.040,0:53:57.440 built currently so that we can go to the Moon and beyond in a more industrial manner and a much 0:53:57.440,0:54:02.240 more affordable manner. So the question is okay that's probably going to be the big players being there, 0:54:03.200,0:54:07.200 do I want to be part of that like we have micro launchers being part of this big 0:54:07.760,0:54:14.320 launcher ecosystem so I think there is room for agile efficient customisable vehicle moving here 0:54:14.880,0:54:20.080 and also once this transportation logistic infrastructure is there then what do I build on the 0:54:20.080,0:54:25.440 shoulders, and I mean Nick was mentioning we will need constellation for positioning 0:54:25.440,0:54:32.640 around the Moon, yes for sure we need also energy, we'll need capacity to drill to have 0:54:32.640,0:54:38.080 water, to transform water into etcetera and here we would need a bunch of expertise which for most of 0:54:38.080,0:54:42.800 them, I believe, do not come from the space sector. We need companies like Schlumberger exploring 0:54:42.800,0:54:48.880 the Moon, we need oil and gas companies etc, so if I would be an entrepreneur I would 0:54:48.880,0:54:56.160 look at the fact we already have the main players so what can I build on top based on what 0:54:56.160,0:55:01.440 is already existing or what will exist. The thing that's already existing is access to orbit has 0:55:02.000,0:55:07.120 been made affordable, so what is the next step that we're going to build and to do within the 0:55:07.120,0:55:12.240 orbit and then with exploration, so once the infrastructure is there what are the big 0:55:12.240,0:55:15.840 markets that will emerge or the big problems that will emerge, where I can bring a solution? 0:55:16.640,0:55:22.720 Yeah Hélène, thank you, again each of you are bringing us such interesting and really 0:55:23.520,0:55:28.080 important insights, I'm struck here especially with what Nick was saying, Hélène, what you're 0:55:28.080,0:55:33.360 saying, some of us on the call know, the work of Stu Kauffman at the Santa Fe Institute - 0:55:33.360,0:55:38.880 he's a computational biologist who has really developed this idea of the 'adjacent possible' - 0:55:38.880,0:55:42.880 my colleague Teppo Felin at Oxford has worked with Stu and hosted him 0:55:42.880,0:55:47.120 and that idea the adjacent possible, exactly what you're saying Hélène, there's what we do today 0:55:47.120,0:55:52.800 creates possibilities for tomorrow that we can't even imagine today. I think your comments about 0:55:52.800,0:55:57.840 how you want to be a space entrepreneur, yeah, debris is the place to start but then you have 0:55:57.840,0:56:04.800 to go back as all of you have said to circular economy - refresh, recycle, renew, build in space - 0:56:04.800,0:56:10.320 I think, Hélène, your comments really underscore that adjacent possible, what we do today sets up 0:56:10.320,0:56:17.840 possibilities for tomorrow, it opens up an adjacent puzzle that may not even be imaginable - let alone 0:56:17.840,0:56:23.600 feasible - today, I think it's incredibly important again thank you. Many questions coming in, 0:56:24.400,0:56:28.720 Charles raises a really concrete question on private ownership of resources 0:56:28.720,0:56:34.560 mined from celestial bodies; this is a commons issue, that focus on regulation. 0:56:34.560,0:56:40.560 Nigel says what's really exciting in terms of solving very terrestrial problems 0:56:40.560,0:56:46.240 of climate change and biodiversity, this is that important link between space and space 0:56:46.240,0:56:53.680 activity and the sustainable development goals. I see again similar questions coming from 0:56:53.680,0:57:00.960 Camarata, several people on scale in its unique location and the unique 0:57:00.960,0:57:06.480 space it has carved out for itself, I'm also seeing from Farah's questions around 0:57:07.040,0:57:12.720 much of this activity has been government-led or government inspired, when will it be consumer-led. 0:57:13.280,0:57:18.800 Let me come to Chris as a final round of comments on this question 0:57:18.800,0:57:24.400 of space debris and that whole linked set of initiatives are so central for Astroscale. 0:57:24.400,0:57:28.880 And also, Chris, I know you have views on some of these other questions as well, so Chris over to you. 0:57:31.840,0:57:43.840 Again, we need another hour, but anyway this is - and again just to compliment the 0:57:43.840,0:57:49.040 other two panellists - it's great to be an observer of this to hear your guys' views, it's been fantastic 0:57:49.040,0:57:55.920 and this concept of adjacent possible, I love it, I hadn't heard it before but it's exactly what 0:57:55.920,0:58:02.480 what we're thinking about, we're looking at these technology capabilities of RPO 0:58:03.120,0:58:09.520 guidance, navigation contro,l and rendezvous with satellite, that's going to be great for 0:58:09.520,0:58:16.640 debris removal. It has implications across the board on so many aspects of space, obviously, 0:58:16.640,0:58:21.840 from sensitive areas like security through to things that Hélène was just talking about as well on 0:58:22.560,0:58:28.720 what else can be done with with recycling and other aspects of space. But to touch on a 0:58:28.720,0:58:33.520 couple of questions that have come up on debris, I've seen questions of is enough being done; 0:58:34.080,0:58:43.040 no not yet - short answer - but I would caveat that by saying there's a 0:58:43.040,0:58:48.240 lot more being done now than there was ten years ago, there's a lot more attention 0:58:48.240,0:58:54.480 in Europe and Japan particularly where we have missions that are specifically focused 0:58:54.480,0:59:00.720 on it. Hélène mentioned Clear Space, fantastic to see a a colleague of ours taking that 0:59:00.720,0:59:06.480 mission for ESA, we've got a mission with the Japan Space Agency Jackson to go and characterise 0:59:06.480,0:59:11.920 an upper stage rocket body with them which will eventually lead to debris removal, so there's 0:59:11.920,0:59:17.600 actual missions in play, so that's fantastic. I mean to see governments actually stepping up and 0:59:17.600,0:59:22.960 then we see the commercial sector taking the steps to prepare for this, you see One Web which just 0:59:22.960,0:59:28.080 launched again and on each of those satellites that they just launched 0:59:28.080,0:59:34.400 there was a docking plate with a ferromagnetic surface that enables future servicing and removal, 0:59:35.280,0:59:39.680 that's fantastic, and so that's exactly what we're testing on our mission that launched a month 0:59:39.680,0:59:46.560 ago. Our demonstration mission is we're testing magnetic capture of an object in orbit so 0:59:47.600,0:59:52.960 steps are being taken, now who should be driving this, who should 0:59:52.960,0:59:58.560 be paying, that was another question that I saw come up. We see it as a combination, the 0:59:58.560,1:00:03.360 government's got to take their steps which I just noted is happening - that's got to continue - 1:00:03.360,1:00:08.640 but then the commercial sector, they should step up. I mean 1:00:08.640,1:00:13.120 this is their area where - or the commercial sector is going to want to see 1:00:13.120,1:00:19.840 a viable and sustainable orbital environment, there should be an incentive to make sure that 1:00:19.840,1:00:26.000 that stays as such, and so we see this as something where there's a responsibility from both 1:00:26.000,1:00:30.320 sides to make sure that it remains sustainable. There's a lot more to be said about this but I 1:00:30.320,1:00:36.080 know we're running out of time. Yeah Chris, thank you for again for directly answering the issues 1:00:36.080,1:00:42.000 and really reminding us of the the range of possible collaborators, the range of solutions. 1:00:42.000,1:00:46.720 I think one of the things that's come through in the panel is these are not single organisation 1:00:46.720,1:00:54.800 solutions nor are they single model solutions, they are distributed, shared, potentially competitive 1:00:54.800,1:00:59.520 but also collaborative. Let me invite each of the panellists to just give us a very succinct 1:00:59.520,1:01:04.640 phrase or two they want to close on and then we'll wrap up for the day. Nick, I'll start with you, 1:01:04.640,1:01:11.360 and then Chris and then Hélène: a phrase. Basically yeah it's an interesting time for the 1:01:11.360,1:01:15.840 whole system because for the first time it's actually starting to feel like an industry. 1:01:17.600,1:01:25.280 Super, Chris? Together, cooperation, this is the this panel is a representation of 1:01:25.280,1:01:30.000 government agency, startup, large aerospace, can't do it without all three of us working 1:01:30.000,1:01:36.000 together. Thank you very much; Hélène I'd like to say the team is everything, 1:01:36.960,1:01:41.200 also it relates to cooperation of course but I think working on space project we have the 1:01:42.160,1:01:47.760 immense pleasure to do things much above ourselves just because of a great team, 1:01:47.760,1:01:52.560 and as a unique industry where one failure by one member of a team can lead to a huge catastrophe. 1:01:54.400,1:01:59.360 So I'd like to express here the infinite reconnaissance to people working every day at 1:01:59.360,1:02:04.720 each of their scales to make that happen and I believe in the future diversity of 1:02:04.720,1:02:09.040 these teams with computer scientists, people coming from biosciences that will be a key asset to 1:02:09.040,1:02:15.280 succeed. Hélène, thank you, thank you all three, this has been a remarkable hour - Chris, Nick and Hélène - 1:02:15.280,1:02:21.040 for your comments, your candour and really sharing the breadth of your expertise with our audience, 1:02:21.040,1:02:26.560 I want to thank everyone for joining today, it's been a very provocative and also instructive hour. 1:02:27.280,1:02:32.960 I encourage people to stay involved, we have some earlier episodes as I mentioned with Lucas Kello 1:02:32.960,1:02:37.040 and my colleague Eamonn Molloy, we have sessions coming up. 1:02:37.040,1:02:41.200 May 21st my colleague Maria Zubeldia will be hosting a group of 1:02:42.400,1:02:47.280 of experienced entrepreneurs and others to really think about entrepreneurship opportunities 1:02:47.280,1:02:52.400 and jobs in the industry. We have other panels coming up later - Robert Eberhart, a colleague at 1:02:53.040,1:02:57.920 Stanford - who'll join us to think about what's distinct about space entrepreneurship relative to 1:02:57.920,1:03:04.000 other zones and activities of entrepreneurship. So again great thanks to our sponsors, 1:03:04.000,1:03:09.040 my personal thanks to the student team - our research students, MBAs and others who are 1:03:09.040,1:03:14.160 working with us in the Oxford Space Initiative, and and finally of course enormous appreciation to the 1:03:14.160,1:03:29.840 three panellists for both taking time and being so generous with their wisdom; thank you all very much. 1:04:04.880,1:04:05.380