00:00:08:00 00:00:09:13 Hello and welcome to Leadership 00:00:10:05 00:00:11:11 in Extraordinary Times, a 00:00:12:02 00:00:13:14 podcast about business leaders 00:00:14:03 00:00:15:23 on the front lines of new thinking. 00:00:16:11 00:00:18:05 I'm Peter Tufano, the Dean of 00:00:18:13 00:00:19:17 Said Business School here at the 00:00:19:18 00:00:20:20 University of Oxford. 00:00:21:06 00:00:22:23 And in this episode, I'm also your 00:00:22:24 00:00:24:01 host, recorded as part 00:00:25:01 00:00:27:05 of our series of live online events. 00:00:27:15 00:00:29:08 I'm in conversation with Dr Gillian 00:00:29:18 00:00:30:15 Tett. 00:00:30:16 00:00:32:05 Gillian is chair of the editorial 00:00:32:06 00:00:34:02 board and editor at large of the 00:00:34:03 00:00:35:15 Financial Times, creator of the 00:00:35:21 00:00:37:22 phenomenal Moral Money Newsletter 00:00:38:00 00:00:39:22 and author of her newest book, 00:00:40:02 00:00:41:02 Anthro Vision. 00:00:41:09 00:00:43:00 The book is a clear and compelling 00:00:43:02 00:00:44:13 demonstration of the power of 00:00:44:14 00:00:46:11 anthropological thinking to help us 00:00:46:12 00:00:47:20 understand how we work, live 00:00:48:11 00:00:49:11 and lead. 00:00:49:22 00:00:51:16 So here's episode three, 00:00:52:01 00:00:53:13 Anthro Vision: How Anthropology 00:00:54:06 00:00:55:24 Can Explain Business and Life. 00:01:00:05 00:01:01:12 So, Gillian, thank you for joining 00:01:01:13 00:01:03:09 us in your otherwise incredibly busy 00:01:03:10 00:01:04:09 schedule. 00:01:04:18 00:01:06:19 I'm a dyed in the wool economist and 00:01:07:08 00:01:08:17 sometimes you see these in book 00:01:08:18 00:01:10:07 blurbs, but I literally couldn't put 00:01:10:08 00:01:11:22 this book down; I started in the 00:01:12:04 00:01:13:06 evening and the next morning I 00:01:13:07 00:01:14:06 finished it. 00:01:14:07 00:01:15:03 Dr. Tett. 00:01:15:04 00:01:17:03 And in this year, where people 00:01:17:04 00:01:18:15 using their doctors title has been 00:01:18:16 00:01:20:09 contentious, who I've never heard 00:01:20:10 00:01:21:25 use that doctor title before, has 00:01:22:02 00:01:23:07 her doctorate from Cambridge. 00:01:23:18 00:01:25:14 She's combined the power of 00:01:25:15 00:01:27:12 careful listening and superb 00:01:27:13 00:01:29:03 communication and writing skills 00:01:29:10 00:01:31:02 to make her readers better informed 00:01:31:03 00:01:32:10 and more alert to the world around 00:01:32:11 00:01:33:05 them. 00:01:33:06 00:01:34:22 And in one final tribute before we 00:01:34:23 00:01:36:07 begin, I mentioned to one of 00:01:36:19 00:01:37:23 my junior colleagues that I would 00:01:37:24 00:01:39:00 have the privilege of interviewing 00:01:39:01 00:01:39:23 Gillian today. 00:01:39:24 00:01:41:08 And she wrote me an email right 00:01:41:09 00:01:42:05 back. 00:01:42:06 00:01:43:06 I'll quote from the email. 00:01:43:13 00:01:44:13 I met Gillian in 2008 00:01:45:16 00:01:46:25 in Montreal, where she was the 00:01:46:26 00:01:48:14 keynote speaker for the economic 00:01:48:15 00:01:50:07 anthropology subfield meeting 00:01:50:12 00:01:51:25 of the American Anthropological 00:01:52:03 00:01:53:15 Association's annual meeting. 00:01:53:24 00:01:54:24 That's a mouthful. 00:01:55:11 00:01:57:06 She was incredibly generous with her 00:01:57:09 00:01:58:20 time and humble. I remember those 00:01:58:21 00:01:59:23 qualities to the day. 00:02:00:13 00:02:01:14 And if that's true 13 00:02:02:16 00:02:04:15 years ago, not only is she a great 00:02:04:16 00:02:06:12 thinker, a great observer, a 00:02:06:13 00:02:08:08 great writer and communicator, but 00:02:08:09 00:02:09:13 also an amazing person. 00:02:10:04 00:02:11:09 Gillian, over to you. 00:02:11:17 00:02:13:15 And I want to start easy with this, 00:02:13:16 00:02:14:24 because probably most of the 00:02:15:14 00:02:16:14 listeners today have 00:02:17:14 00:02:19:19 never kind of taken an anthropology 00:02:19:20 00:02:21:06 course, have read a book about 00:02:21:12 00:02:22:12 anthropology. 00:02:22:16 00:02:24:07 And you point out that anthropology 00:02:24:08 00:02:25:18 is far less studied than, say, 00:02:25:19 00:02:27:09 economics or psychology. 00:02:27:18 00:02:29:12 For those people who missed out, can 00:02:29:16 00:02:31:13 you kind of summarise what is 00:02:31:14 00:02:32:13 anthropology all about? 00:02:32:14 00:02:34:10 What's the core kind of approach of 00:02:34:11 00:02:35:10 anthropologists? 00:02:35:21 00:02:37:09 Well, thank you very much indeed, 00:02:37:10 00:02:38:20 Peter, and it's so great to be 00:02:38:21 00:02:40:09 talking to you. In fact, you are 00:02:40:20 00:02:42:17 the first event I've 00:02:42:18 00:02:44:13 done to really talk about the book. 00:02:44:21 00:02:46:07 And I'm delighted to be talking to 00:02:46:08 00:02:47:13 you at Said Oxford Business School, 00:02:47:14 00:02:49:10 because the reality is 00:02:49:11 00:02:50:15 that outside the world of 00:02:50:16 00:02:52:10 anthropology, people who work in 00:02:52:11 00:02:53:25 business or finance or economics 00:02:54:18 00:02:56:22 or accounting or tech 00:02:57:04 00:02:59:03 for the most part, don't know what 00:02:59:04 00:03:00:05 anthropology is. 00:03:00:12 00:03:02:16 We've all learnt why it pays 00:03:02:17 00:03:05:05 to import a bit of psychology 00:03:05:06 00:03:06:23 into your thinking; books like Danny 00:03:06:24 00:03:08:24 Kahneman or a wonderful 00:03:09:00 00:03:10:11 book Thinking Fast and Slow or 00:03:10:12 00:03:12:04 Richard Taylor's books, all explain 00:03:12:09 00:03:13:23 to us why psychology matters. 00:03:14:05 00:03:15:16 People like Niall Ferguson are 00:03:15:17 00:03:17:06 telling us why history matters, 00:03:17:07 00:03:18:21 particularly now in the pandemic. 00:03:19:05 00:03:20:11 And we've had it like Malcolm 00:03:20:12 00:03:22:03 Gladwell writing about neuroscience. 00:03:22:04 00:03:23:24 But anthropology is not 00:03:24:00 00:03:24:23 well known. 00:03:24:24 00:03:25:23 And at its core, it's 00:03:26:19 00:03:28:23 about the study of man. 00:03:28:24 00:03:30:12 I say man, because the word come 00:03:30:14 00:03:32:03 from the Greek study of man. 00:03:32:13 00:03:34:18 And they didn't have much sense of 00:03:34:19 00:03:36:06 political correctness in those days. 00:03:36:17 00:03:37:24 But it's really about trying to 00:03:38:00 00:03:39:20 understand what human beings do 00:03:39:21 00:03:41:07 and think and say and how they 00:03:41:16 00:03:42:16 act. 00:03:42:17 00:03:44:01 Now, you might say, well, isn't that 00:03:44:02 00:03:45:09 what psychology does? 00:03:45:18 00:03:47:05 The answer is yes, it does, but it 00:03:47:06 00:03:48:23 tends to focus on individuals. 00:03:49:07 00:03:51:02 And what anthropology really looks 00:03:51:03 00:03:52:13 at is the social and cultural 00:03:52:25 00:03:54:08 context and the assumptions 00:03:55:05 00:03:56:15 above all else that shape the 00:03:57:01 00:03:58:16 way that we behave as groups 00:03:58:23 00:04:00:20 that for the most part, we're just 00:04:00:21 00:04:02:07 not aware of at all. 00:04:03:00 00:04:04:10 And the key to finding trade 00:04:05:01 00:04:06:17 about how anthropology does that 00:04:07:05 00:04:08:13 is that it tries to look at 00:04:08:18 00:04:10:16 societies and cultures bottom 00:04:10:19 00:04:12:18 up to get what we call 00:04:12:19 00:04:14:11 the worm's eye view, not the bird's 00:04:14:19 00:04:16:07 eye view, by actually observing 00:04:16:15 00:04:17:15 people themselves. 00:04:17:24 00:04:19:14 It tries to look at everything, to 00:04:19:15 00:04:20:25 see how it's interrelated and 00:04:21:13 00:04:23:05 to focus not just on what people 00:04:23:06 00:04:25:04 say, but the gap between 00:04:25:05 00:04:26:14 what they say and do and what 00:04:27:01 00:04:28:22 they don't say, what we call 00:04:28:23 00:04:30:09 social silences, which matter 00:04:30:10 00:04:31:09 enormously. 00:04:31:14 00:04:33:08 And anthropology tries to do that in 00:04:33:09 00:04:34:17 a comparative cross-cultural 00:04:34:18 00:04:35:18 perspective. 00:04:35:22 00:04:37:06 And it does that for two reasons. 00:04:37:13 00:04:39:14 Firstly, the act of thinking 00:04:39:15 00:04:41:19 yourself into the mind of the other, 00:04:42:02 00:04:43:12 someone who seems strange and 00:04:43:13 00:04:45:07 different from you, gives you 00:04:45:08 00:04:47:00 empathy for another point of view 00:04:47:01 00:04:48:22 that is completely crucial 00:04:49:03 00:04:50:05 in a global world, but 00:04:51:04 00:04:53:06 also, there's a second win-win. 00:04:53:16 00:04:55:13 Because if you put yourself 00:04:55:14 00:04:57:10 into the mind of someone who seems 00:04:57:11 00:04:58:10 strange and really 00:04:59:07 00:05:01:05 try to walk in their shoes and 00:05:01:06 00:05:02:18 embrace a different mindset, at 00:05:02:22 00:05:04:25 least for a while, that also 00:05:04:26 00:05:06:09 gives you an ability to look 00:05:06:24 00:05:08:05 back at yourself with more 00:05:08:12 00:05:09:12 perspective and see 00:05:10:12 00:05:12:11 those social silences, all 00:05:12:12 00:05:13:24 those parts of the world you ignore; 00:05:14:00 00:05:14:24 those blind spots. 00:05:15:13 00:05:16:17 So that, in essence, is what 00:05:16:18 00:05:18:03 anthropologists try to do. 00:05:18:11 00:05:20:05 And the same principle applies 00:05:20:13 00:05:22:11 whether you are in Papua New 00:05:22:12 00:05:24:07 Guinea, whether you are in the Cook 00:05:24:08 00:05:25:16 Islands or whether in the corporate 00:05:25:17 00:05:27:14 boardroom, it really pays 00:05:27:15 00:05:29:00 to have that insider outsider 00:05:29:22 00:05:31:08 perspective and look at social 00:05:31:20 00:05:32:20 silences. 00:05:33:08 00:05:34:24 And let's pick up right there. 00:05:35:00 00:05:36:06 It's clear as a practising 00:05:36:14 00:05:38:05 anthropologist and journalist, you 00:05:38:06 00:05:39:17 not only listen to what people say 00:05:39:18 00:05:41:08 and do, but also what they don't. 00:05:41:18 00:05:43:08 So it's really the social science 00:05:43:14 00:05:44:15 of social silence. 00:05:45:03 00:05:46:12 It's hard enough to observe what's 00:05:46:13 00:05:48:00 in front of you. How do you observe 00:05:48:01 00:05:49:20 what's not said or what's not in 00:05:49:21 00:05:51:12 view? Can you give us an example of 00:05:51:13 00:05:53:08 how the dog that didn't bark 00:05:53:13 00:05:54:15 is what you're focussing on? 00:05:55:10 00:05:56:20 Well, that's an incredibly good 00:05:56:21 00:05:58:01 question. And the reality 00:05:58:17 00:06:00:03 is we live in a world where we're 00:06:00:04 00:06:01:03 drowning in noise 00:06:02:01 00:06:03:17 all the time, particularly in the 00:06:03:19 00:06:05:03 media, by the way, and where 00:06:05:17 00:06:07:21 most people are just so incredibly 00:06:07:22 00:06:08:24 busy just getting their 00:06:09:19 00:06:11:15 job done, that it's very 00:06:11:16 00:06:13:03 hard to actually look at what you're 00:06:13:04 00:06:14:17 not looking at or to think about 00:06:15:11 00:06:17:03 the task that you're not fulfilling 00:06:17:04 00:06:18:05 that are not directly in front of 00:06:18:06 00:06:19:09 your nose. 00:06:20:12 00:06:21:15 But to give you one practical 00:06:21:16 00:06:23:18 example where it really 00:06:23:19 00:06:25:08 impacted my reporting 00:06:25:15 00:06:27:08 and subsequently impacted the wider 00:06:27:18 00:06:29:06 global financial system - 00:06:30:15 00:06:32:22 when I was a reporter back in 2004, 00:06:33:15 00:06:35:12 I was temporarily running 00:06:35:13 00:06:36:22 something called the Lex column on 00:06:36:23 00:06:38:04 the FT, that's the corner, 00:06:38:19 00:06:39:17 which writes about corporate 00:06:39:18 00:06:40:17 finance. 00:06:40:23 00:06:42:12 And one day I was asked to write 00:06:42:20 00:06:44:08 a memo outlining what we should 00:06:44:18 00:06:45:18 be writing about. 00:06:46:02 00:06:48:04 So I started off writing about 00:06:48:10 00:06:49:16 writing a list of all the things 00:06:49:17 00:06:51:07 that we were already covering 00:06:51:15 00:06:53:09 and everyone was talking about. 00:06:53:10 00:06:54:20 So the tech sector, industry, 00:06:55:08 00:06:57:10 manufacturing and the financial 00:06:57:11 00:06:58:12 markets, I wrote about 00:06:59:06 00:07:00:19 things like the equity market 00:07:01:03 00:07:02:05 because that's a noise. 00:07:02:07 00:07:03:15 That's what everyone talks about all 00:07:03:16 00:07:05:03 the time in the media, and what 00:07:05:12 00:07:06:17 most investors think about. 00:07:07:18 00:07:09:10 And I subsequently went around the 00:07:09:11 00:07:11:02 City of London trying to think like 00:07:11:03 00:07:12:09 an anthropologist and look 00:07:13:08 00:07:14:24 at what people were not talking 00:07:15:00 00:07:16:08 about and where a lot of the 00:07:16:14 00:07:18:03 activity was happening that wasn't 00:07:18:04 00:07:19:03 discussed. 00:07:19:06 00:07:21:00 And it occurred to me to actually an 00:07:21:01 00:07:22:19 enormous amount of activity was 00:07:22:20 00:07:24:00 happening in the world of 00:07:24:19 00:07:26:05 derivatives and credit, 00:07:26:15 00:07:28:04 which the media barely talked about 00:07:28:05 00:07:29:20 at all, and politicians completely 00:07:30:06 00:07:31:06 ignored. 00:07:31:11 00:07:32:23 So I became very curious and started 00:07:32:24 00:07:34:06 digging into that world and 00:07:34:22 00:07:35:24 eventually wrote something called 00:07:35:25 00:07:37:17 the Iceberg Memo, which pointed out 00:07:37:22 00:07:39:13 that the financial system was like 00:07:39:18 00:07:40:13 an iceberg. 00:07:40:14 00:07:42:02 You had the equity market poking 00:07:42:06 00:07:43:23 above the surface, but they weren't 00:07:44:03 00:07:45:18 actually most of the activity. 00:07:46:10 00:07:47:22 And so I dug into the world of 00:07:48:02 00:07:49:22 credit derivatives, started 00:07:49:23 00:07:52:01 doing that in 2005 and discovered, 00:07:52:08 00:07:54:02 as we now know, post great financial 00:07:54:12 00:07:56:06 crisis, that there was an incredible 00:07:56:22 00:07:57:22 story bubbling there. 00:07:58:20 00:08:00:19 But that example of trying to 00:08:00:20 00:08:02:09 actively look at the social silence 00:08:03:01 00:08:04:22 instead of just the noise can be 00:08:04:23 00:08:05:23 applied to almost any sphere. 00:08:07:04 00:08:08:04 How do you do that? 00:08:08:15 00:08:09:15 Well, sometimes just 00:08:10:11 00:08:12:06 trying to stop and ask yourself, 00:08:12:15 00:08:14:01 if I was a Martian and landed 00:08:14:20 00:08:16:04 where I am today, what would 00:08:16:17 00:08:17:22 I see that I'm ignoring? 00:08:18:16 00:08:20:21 Sometimes just trying to 00:08:21:03 00:08:22:15 ask someone who is an outsider 00:08:23:01 00:08:24:17 to peer into your world and point 00:08:25:00 00:08:26:01 out the blind spots that you're 00:08:26:02 00:08:27:17 missing can be really helpful; 00:08:27:23 00:08:28:22 in many ways that's what an 00:08:28:23 00:08:29:22 anthropologist does. 00:08:30:17 00:08:32:07 Sometimes just actively trying to 00:08:32:08 00:08:33:17 embrace another point of view 00:08:34:05 00:08:35:20 and think yourself into the mind of 00:08:35:21 00:08:37:13 someone else and then look back at 00:08:37:14 00:08:38:24 yourself that - you can do that, 00:08:38:25 00:08:40:23 too, or else just simply 00:08:40:24 00:08:41:24 ask yourself if I was 00:08:42:23 00:08:45:02 to keep a daily diary 00:08:45:03 00:08:47:01 of what I'm physically doing or 00:08:47:02 00:08:48:11 what my company is doing and 00:08:48:23 00:08:50:12 compare that to what we're talking 00:08:50:13 00:08:51:11 about. 00:08:51:12 00:08:52:13 What would the gap be? 00:08:52:21 00:08:53:21 What am I missing? 00:08:54:03 00:08:56:06 What is the area of social silence? 00:08:57:08 00:08:59:02 So I want to pick up one 00:08:59:04 00:09:00:21 kind of side note in that story. 00:09:00:22 00:09:02:21 We'll get back to anthropology 00:09:02:22 00:09:04:00 and anthro vision for a moment. 00:09:04:07 00:09:06:01 But in the book you make you make 00:09:06:02 00:09:07:13 the point when you move to Lex 00:09:07:25 00:09:09:14 and then to the capital markets, 00:09:09:15 00:09:11:02 part of the of the paper. 00:09:11:12 00:09:13:07 It wasn't exactly something you were 00:09:14:13 00:09:15:23 eagerly awaiting, shall I say. 00:09:15:24 00:09:17:08 I think I get that 00:09:18:01 00:09:19:13 from between the lines and not so 00:09:19:14 00:09:20:14 much between the lines. 00:09:20:19 00:09:22:06 Yet in this space, you found a 00:09:22:15 00:09:24:04 career opportunity or an opening 00:09:24:06 00:09:25:19 that you kind of capitalised in a 00:09:25:20 00:09:26:15 big way. 00:09:26:16 00:09:27:20 So many of the listeners 00:09:28:12 00:09:29:22 here will be young people and they 00:09:29:23 00:09:31:22 may find themselves pushed into 00:09:31:23 00:09:33:07 a side thing that they hadn't 00:09:33:08 00:09:34:07 anticipated. 00:09:34:08 00:09:36:07 You made an incredible kind 00:09:36:08 00:09:38:04 of discovery there. 00:09:38:05 00:09:39:15 So tell me about how you felt 00:09:40:00 00:09:41:18 when you moved over into the capital 00:09:41:19 00:09:43:22 market side, because 00:09:43:23 00:09:45:07 clearly at the end, when you were 00:09:45:08 00:09:46:20 seen as this prophetess of, you 00:09:46:24 00:09:48:14 know, you saw the financial crisis 00:09:48:15 00:09:50:05 before everybody else, it was great. 00:09:50:06 00:09:51:17 But, you know, there was there's 00:09:51:18 00:09:52:19 really a journey in there. 00:09:52:20 00:09:54:04 And the journey. 00:09:54:05 00:09:55:18 How was it in terms of listening? 00:09:56:11 00:09:57:11 Yeah, absolutely. 00:09:57:15 00:09:59:21 And so, you know, it's very easy 00:09:59:22 00:10:01:11 for people early in their careers 00:10:01:23 00:10:04:04 to look at somebody like myself 00:10:04:05 00:10:05:14 who appears to have had some 00:10:06:02 00:10:07:22 success and assume 00:10:07:23 00:10:09:09 that somehow the line has gone 00:10:09:18 00:10:10:18 smoothly, upwards. 00:10:11:01 00:10:12:13 And that's particularly true, I 00:10:12:21 00:10:14:11 think, for young women looking at 00:10:14:12 00:10:16:05 senior women, because 00:10:16:15 00:10:17:18 senior women have got to where they 00:10:17:19 00:10:19:19 are often quite reluctant to admit 00:10:19:20 00:10:21:20 to setbacks or things 00:10:21:21 00:10:22:20 aren't going right. 00:10:23:16 00:10:24:23 And one of the messages I'm always 00:10:24:24 00:10:26:18 desperately keen to stress to people 00:10:27:00 00:10:28:21 is actually in my career, like most 00:10:28:24 00:10:31:03 careers has had incredible zigzags; 00:10:31:13 00:10:32:24 ups and downs and things haven't 00:10:32:25 00:10:33:25 gone to plan. 00:10:34:03 00:10:35:04 And some of what I've 00:10:35:25 00:10:37:25 got today is a result of hard work. 00:10:38:08 00:10:40:04 A lot of it's also due to luck 00:10:40:05 00:10:41:20 or bad luck as well and trying to 00:10:41:21 00:10:42:20 respond. 00:10:42:22 00:10:44:18 So in my case, what happened was 00:10:44:19 00:10:46:12 that I was temporary head of the Lex 00:10:46:14 00:10:47:14 column. 00:10:47:21 00:10:49:07 I actually applied to run the Lex 00:10:49:08 00:10:50:15 column full time and was turned 00:10:50:16 00:10:51:16 down. 00:10:51:23 00:10:54:09 I applied for various other jobs I 00:10:54:10 00:10:55:11 had inside the FT. 00:10:55:17 00:10:56:17 These things happen. 00:10:56:19 00:10:58:13 You have good times and bad times in 00:10:58:14 00:10:59:14 your career. 00:11:00:07 00:11:01:13 I had written this iceberg 00:11:02:03 00:11:03:09 memo saying I thought the 00:11:03:25 00:11:05:20 financial media was really missing 00:11:05:21 00:11:07:17 a trick by just focussing on 00:11:07:18 00:11:09:11 the visible parts of the iceberg and 00:11:09:18 00:11:11:05 ignoring some of the subterranean 00:11:11:06 00:11:12:13 stuff. And that didn't make 00:11:13:05 00:11:14:23 me wildly popular necessarily. 00:11:16:02 00:11:18:00 And so then when the capital markets 00:11:18:01 00:11:19:11 opportunity came up, although 00:11:20:00 00:11:21:20 in many ways it was ideal for me, 00:11:22:05 00:11:23:16 I was a bit nervous at taking it, to 00:11:23:17 00:11:24:22 be honest, partly because 00:11:25:18 00:11:27:12 I was also pregnant at the time. 00:11:27:13 00:11:29:04 And like many women who 00:11:29:14 00:11:31:13 are in large institutions, 00:11:31:21 00:11:33:10 I was terrified of being shunted 00:11:33:20 00:11:35:14 off onto the mommy track, as we call 00:11:35:15 00:11:36:15 it. 00:11:36:17 00:11:38:16 But I take it because I could see 00:11:38:17 00:11:40:07 some inklings, I had some inkling of 00:11:40:08 00:11:41:14 how much opportunity there 00:11:42:04 00:11:43:01 might be. 00:11:43:02 00:11:44:09 And the capital markets team at the 00:11:44:10 00:11:45:22 time was not a high status part 00:11:46:09 00:11:47:09 of the FT. 00:11:47:17 00:11:48:25 Glory, high status, visible 00:11:49:18 00:11:51:06 parts of the FT were 00:11:51:15 00:11:53:14 teams like the economics department 00:11:54:09 00:11:55:19 they had - and I'd actually started 00:11:55:20 00:11:57:04 my career there. They had a lovely 00:11:57:05 00:11:59:03 office overlooking the river 00:11:59:07 00:12:00:19 and St. Paul's, they sat next to the 00:12:01:03 00:12:02:15 editor's room, and the capital 00:12:03:05 00:12:04:20 markets team was right at the other 00:12:04:21 00:12:06:13 end of the building in the basement 00:12:06:24 00:12:08:08 overlooking the trashcans. 00:12:09:05 00:12:11:06 So that was part of me thinking, 00:12:11:07 00:12:13:05 yikes, I'm on the mommy track. 00:12:13:12 00:12:15:04 But the reality is that when I got 00:12:15:08 00:12:17:13 there, partly because 00:12:18:10 00:12:20:11 it wasn't very closely monitored 00:12:20:12 00:12:22:00 or scrutinised, I had tremendous 00:12:22:09 00:12:23:22 freedom to reinvent 00:12:24:13 00:12:25:17 the way we were working. 00:12:26:11 00:12:28:01 But I also had tremendous freedom to 00:12:28:02 00:12:29:25 start poking around in 00:12:29:26 00:12:31:20 the shadowy bits of the iceberg or 00:12:31:21 00:12:33:08 the areas of social silence and 00:12:33:22 00:12:35:02 see what an amazing story 00:12:35:17 00:12:37:23 was there and also what incredible 00:12:37:24 00:12:38:23 opportunity. 00:12:39:15 00:12:41:01 And you did that so well. 00:12:41:02 00:12:42:21 I think there's some quote from Moby 00:12:42:25 00:12:44:16 Dick about dropping your buckets. 00:12:45:05 00:12:46:11 We can all Google that at some 00:12:46:12 00:12:48:06 point, but thanks for that 00:12:48:07 00:12:49:09 kind of aside, because I think it's 00:12:49:10 00:12:50:25 important for people, especially my 00:12:50:26 00:12:52:06 young people, listeners, to 00:12:52:07 00:12:53:17 understand the journeys that we're 00:12:53:18 00:12:54:12 all on. 00:12:54:13 00:12:56:08 But back, maybe to Anthro Vision. 00:12:57:05 00:12:58:18 I'm an economist another social 00:12:58:21 00:13:00:07 scientist, and we use the term 00:13:00:08 00:13:02:07 science in quotes start 00:13:02:08 00:13:03:23 from hypotheses or guesses, which 00:13:04:06 00:13:06:04 then we say that we test against 00:13:06:05 00:13:07:01 data. 00:13:07:02 00:13:08:10 But that doesn't seem to be the 00:13:08:11 00:13:09:16 approach of anthropologists. 00:13:10:02 00:13:11:13 But clearly you select sites and 00:13:11:14 00:13:13:01 individuals with some theory in 00:13:13:02 00:13:14:13 mind, like your doctoral work on 00:13:14:14 00:13:15:11 wedding rituals. 00:13:15:12 00:13:16:14 What's the difference between an 00:13:16:15 00:13:18:09 anthropologist hunch that gets them 00:13:18:10 00:13:19:18 started on listening 00:13:20:05 00:13:21:14 and an economist hypothesis? 00:13:22:00 00:13:23:23 Well, I think the main difference is 00:13:24:22 00:13:26:14 go back to that old cliche contact 00:13:26:15 00:13:27:18 with the enemy, if you like, or not 00:13:27:20 00:13:29:04 the enemy in this case, but people 00:13:29:05 00:13:30:09 you're studying and hopefully are 00:13:30:10 00:13:32:05 very friendly and empathetic with. 00:13:32:22 00:13:34:12 Many of the intellectual tools we 00:13:34:13 00:13:36:21 use start with a clear-cut theory 00:13:37:06 00:13:39:05 and start by essentially creating 00:13:39:06 00:13:41:07 a bounded way to test 00:13:41:08 00:13:42:22 that theory or experiment 00:13:43:06 00:13:45:06 and really focus on the inputs 00:13:45:07 00:13:46:19 and exclude a lot of the variables. 00:13:46:20 00:13:48:25 Now, obviously, like any stereotype, 00:13:49:07 00:13:50:14 that stereotype has plenty 00:13:51:03 00:13:52:03 of exceptions. 00:13:52:12 00:13:54:02 But there is this idea, certainly 00:13:54:10 00:13:55:12 in the natural sciences, which has 00:13:55:13 00:13:57:08 bled into many of the - 00:13:58:02 00:13:59:22 some parts of social sciences, that 00:13:59:23 00:14:01:02 you have a theory, you have a 00:14:01:03 00:14:02:17 hypothesis, you create a model, you 00:14:02:18 00:14:04:04 test it out and then hopefully 00:14:04:19 00:14:05:24 you can - it can be repeatable. 00:14:06:10 00:14:07:10 Anthropology really 00:14:08:06 00:14:09:22 starts in a different way by trying 00:14:09:23 00:14:12:01 to, or modern anthropology does, 00:14:12:09 00:14:14:04 by trying to absorb what you 00:14:14:05 00:14:16:19 see with as few preconceptions 00:14:16:20 00:14:18:21 as possible and to try 00:14:18:22 00:14:20:10 and at least initially, 00:14:20:20 00:14:22:16 really look at the world in a 00:14:22:17 00:14:24:24 holistic way without prejudging 00:14:25:00 00:14:25:24 what's important. 00:14:26:09 00:14:27:17 Now, in reality, of course, 00:14:28:12 00:14:29:15 that's very difficult because, you 00:14:29:16 00:14:30:15 know, anyone who's written an 00:14:30:16 00:14:32:07 academic proposal knows you have to 00:14:32:08 00:14:33:08 indicate what you're going to go and 00:14:33:10 00:14:34:08 study. 00:14:34:09 00:14:36:01 And so anthropologists often go out 00:14:36:03 00:14:37:13 with some rough idea in their 00:14:37:24 00:14:39:04 head about what they're interested 00:14:39:05 00:14:40:09 in. But one of the goals 00:14:41:02 00:14:42:16 of anthropology is to constantly 00:14:42:20 00:14:44:20 challenge and test your 00:14:44:21 00:14:46:17 preconceptions and to 00:14:46:18 00:14:48:05 change course if necessary. 00:14:48:14 00:14:49:21 And in my case, when I did 00:14:50:11 00:14:52:13 my research, I went off into 00:14:53:05 00:14:54:22 Soviet Central Asia, a place called 00:14:54:25 00:14:57:02 Tajikistan, and 00:14:57:12 00:14:58:15 basically and spent the 00:14:59:09 00:15:01:10 first few months 00:15:01:11 00:15:02:21 working with one theory which 00:15:03:11 00:15:05:07 was dominant in the world 00:15:05:08 00:15:06:15 of Central Asian studies in the 00:15:06:16 00:15:08:05 nineteen nineties, partly because 00:15:08:15 00:15:09:18 this was a question that worried the 00:15:09:19 00:15:10:18 CIA. 00:15:11:07 00:15:13:09 So in the 1980s not 1990s, 00:15:13:15 00:15:14:15 I forget how old I am, 00:15:15:16 00:15:16:23 but basically the question in the 00:15:16:24 00:15:18:09 1980s which dominated all the 00:15:18:11 00:15:19:21 Western policymakers was 00:15:20:07 00:15:22:03 will there be a revolution 00:15:22:04 00:15:23:20 in places like Tajikistan 00:15:24:04 00:15:26:08 that could topple the Soviet regime 00:15:26:17 00:15:28:18 like there was in Afghanistan? 00:15:29:03 00:15:30:14 And you have to remember Tajikistan 00:15:30:17 00:15:32:04 where I did my work is next to 00:15:32:10 00:15:34:17 Afghanistan and in Afghanistan, 00:15:34:18 00:15:35:24 there'd be the Mujahideen who'd been 00:15:36:00 00:15:37:08 fighting the Soviet communists. 00:15:37:19 00:15:39:15 And so groups like the CIA used 00:15:39:16 00:15:41:07 to call Soviet Central Asia 00:15:41:12 00:15:42:20 the soft underbelly because 00:15:43:12 00:15:44:23 they assumed that Islam and 00:15:45:10 00:15:47:10 communism was fundamentally 00:15:47:11 00:15:48:13 opposed to each other. 00:15:48:19 00:15:50:16 And that was the area most 00:15:50:17 00:15:52:11 likely to create a rebellion against 00:15:52:18 00:15:53:18 Moscow. 00:15:54:08 00:15:55:10 So that was my framework. 00:15:55:13 00:15:57:14 I got into got into the field. 00:15:57:15 00:15:58:24 I got into a Tajik village where I 00:15:59:00 00:15:59:24 lived for a year. 00:16:00:24 00:16:02:10 And started looking at events 00:16:02:15 00:16:03:21 through that lens and then 00:16:04:11 00:16:06:01 realised after about four or five 00:16:06:07 00:16:07:20 months that actually I was wrong, 00:16:08:09 00:16:09:23 that in fact Islam and communism 00:16:10:08 00:16:12:04 were not diametrically opposed 00:16:12:05 00:16:13:18 on the ground in the village in 00:16:14:03 00:16:16:02 terms of how villagers were living 00:16:16:10 00:16:17:10 or even how they saw 00:16:18:07 00:16:19:17 the world. You know, Westerners 00:16:19:18 00:16:20:19 might see the world that way. 00:16:21:01 00:16:23:01 The Tajik villages I lived amongst 00:16:23:02 00:16:24:01 did not. 00:16:24:03 00:16:25:20 And so I had to go back and really 00:16:25:22 00:16:27:11 rethink a lot of my theories and 00:16:27:14 00:16:29:14 ideas. And in fact, my thesis ended 00:16:29:15 00:16:31:21 up being on precisely the opposite, 00:16:31:22 00:16:33:22 which was why some 00:16:33:23 00:16:35:14 kind of accommodation had occurred 00:16:35:18 00:16:37:03 on the ground between Islam and 00:16:37:04 00:16:38:24 communism and why 00:16:39:00 00:16:40:07 at the time it seemed to me 00:16:40:21 00:16:42:08 that, in fact, Central Asia was not 00:16:42:09 00:16:43:15 going to be the soft underbelly or 00:16:43:16 00:16:45:05 the place most likely to revolt. 00:16:45:24 00:16:47:14 It later turned out I was correct 00:16:47:15 00:16:49:03 when the Soviet Union did break up. 00:16:49:13 00:16:50:18 The revolution started in 00:16:51:10 00:16:53:20 the Baltic republics and Tajikistan 00:16:53:21 00:16:55:08 was almost the last republic to 00:16:55:09 00:16:56:08 break away. 00:16:56:21 00:16:57:23 But that's just an example of the 00:16:57:24 00:17:00:01 kind of open minded 00:17:00:02 00:17:02:07 curiosity and willingness to rethink 00:17:02:15 00:17:03:16 that shapes a lot of the 00:17:03:17 00:17:05:07 anthropology discipline and which, 00:17:05:10 00:17:06:18 frankly, I think a lot of business 00:17:06:19 00:17:08:18 leaders and financiers could benefit 00:17:08:19 00:17:09:18 too. 00:17:09:20 00:17:11:23 In the book, you talk about the 00:17:12:03 00:17:13:06 kind of exchanges 00:17:14:00 00:17:15:18 and specifically the 00:17:16:10 00:17:18:07 the notion of exchange or barter 00:17:18:11 00:17:20:05 is not about primitive society. 00:17:20:06 00:17:21:24 But in fact, you used the concept of 00:17:22:00 00:17:23:09 exchanging barter to explain 00:17:23:24 00:17:25:13 basically the entire digital world 00:17:25:14 00:17:27:07 of Facebook, Cambridge Analytica, 00:17:27:14 00:17:29:03 where people trade their data in 00:17:29:13 00:17:30:20 exchange for something. 00:17:31:15 00:17:32:23 So maybe you can talk about that 00:17:32:24 00:17:33:23 concept. 00:17:33:25 00:17:35:21 And one thing you didn't talk about 00:17:35:22 00:17:37:15 in the book is how that exchange or 00:17:37:16 00:17:39:13 barter is influenced 00:17:39:14 00:17:40:21 by something called GDPR. 00:17:42:14 00:17:43:14 That's a great question, Peter, 00:17:44:08 00:17:45:08 thank you. 00:17:45:14 00:17:47:14 Well, one of the reasons why people 00:17:47:15 00:17:49:09 tend to discount anthropology and 00:17:49:10 00:17:50:22 there are many reasons, including, 00:17:50:23 00:17:52:12 by the way, I should stress, some of 00:17:52:13 00:17:53:06 which are the fault of 00:17:53:07 00:17:54:16 anthropologists themselves. 00:17:55:02 00:17:56:11 But one reason is they think that 00:17:56:12 00:17:57:15 anthropology is kind of 00:17:58:10 00:18:00:09 hippy dippy; it only 00:18:00:10 00:18:01:16 looks at ancient tribes or 00:18:02:11 00:18:04:06 exotic faraway peoples. 00:18:04:13 00:18:05:19 And the whole thing smells of 00:18:05:20 00:18:06:19 Indiana Jones. 00:18:07:21 00:18:09:12 And that's understandable in lot of 00:18:09:13 00:18:10:20 ways because, in fact, a 19th 00:18:10:21 00:18:12:23 century anthropologist did mostly 00:18:13:07 00:18:15:05 study what 00:18:15:06 00:18:16:20 they considered to be primitive, 00:18:16:21 00:18:17:23 exotic, faraway tribes. 00:18:18:11 00:18:19:20 And I put all of those words in 00:18:19:21 00:18:20:20 quotations and 00:18:21:20 00:18:24:07 there was a sense of swashbuckling 00:18:24:08 00:18:25:19 adventuring and all that kind of 00:18:25:20 00:18:26:14 stuff. 00:18:26:15 00:18:28:11 But today, anthropologists very 00:18:28:12 00:18:30:11 much look at the Western world, 00:18:30:17 00:18:31:17 not just non Western 00:18:32:16 00:18:33:16 worlds. 00:18:33:19 00:18:35:08 They're as likely to study an Amazon 00:18:35:09 00:18:37:03 warehouse, frankly, as in the Amazon 00:18:37:11 00:18:38:11 jungle. 00:18:38:14 00:18:40:04 And the point is that many of the 00:18:40:10 00:18:41:10 approaches and ideas that 00:18:41:11 00:18:43:04 anthropologists have that were first 00:18:43:05 00:18:44:04 developed in non 00:18:45:05 00:18:46:05 Western context are 00:18:47:02 00:18:49:09 actually very relevant to 00:18:49:10 00:18:50:14 where we are in modern 00:18:50:15 00:18:51:25 industrialised world as well. 00:18:52:16 00:18:53:24 And the question of barter is one of 00:18:54:00 00:18:56:08 those, because anyone 00:18:56:09 00:18:57:13 reared on Adam Smith will 00:18:58:10 00:18:59:18 have imbibed almost without 00:18:59:22 00:19:01:04 realising it the prejudice 00:19:02:07 00:19:03:22 or the idea that barter is something 00:19:03:23 00:19:05:10 that just cavemen do with beads 00:19:06:04 00:19:07:04 and berries and bits 00:19:08:05 00:19:09:19 of cloth, and that as soon as you 00:19:09:20 00:19:11:14 actually historically invented money 00:19:11:20 00:19:13:22 and credit and that basically 00:19:14:03 00:19:15:03 wiped away barter. Well, 00:19:16:04 00:19:18:08 that's not true historically, as 00:19:18:09 00:19:19:21 people like David Graeber, the 00:19:20:06 00:19:21:06 anthrpologist pointed out, or 00:19:21:09 00:19:23:12 Caroline Humphreys at Cambridge, 00:19:24:05 00:19:26:02 in fact, barter has been very 00:19:26:03 00:19:27:22 much concurrent with credit and 00:19:28:04 00:19:29:07 monetary-based systems. 00:19:29:11 00:19:30:25 And if anything, 00:19:31:08 00:19:33:08 it seems that credit came first, not 00:19:33:09 00:19:34:08 barter. 00:19:34:14 00:19:36:04 But the second reason it's really 00:19:36:05 00:19:37:17 interesting is that if you look 00:19:38:06 00:19:40:04 at the world of tech today, 00:19:40:12 00:19:42:05 what you can see very, very clearly 00:19:42:19 00:19:44:04 is that there was actually an 00:19:44:12 00:19:46:16 explosion in the use of barter 00:19:46:22 00:19:48:14 on digital platforms because it's 00:19:48:15 00:19:49:14 made it very simple. 00:19:50:02 00:19:51:17 And by that I don't mean the type of 00:19:51:18 00:19:53:04 barter that happens when you have 00:19:53:12 00:19:54:23 lots of sustainability minded 00:19:55:12 00:19:56:19 communities swapping, say, 00:19:57:11 00:19:58:22 babysitting for haircuts. 00:19:59:06 00:20:01:02 I mean, the entire social media 00:20:01:03 00:20:02:22 space is based on this idea 00:20:03:08 00:20:04:22 that you essentially give up your 00:20:04:23 00:20:06:24 data in exchange for services. 00:20:07:25 00:20:09:04 You give up your personal 00:20:09:05 00:20:10:18 information when you click on a 00:20:10:19 00:20:11:22 Google search or something like 00:20:11:23 00:20:13:18 that. And in exchange, you get 00:20:13:19 00:20:15:08 an incredibly valuable service. 00:20:15:23 00:20:17:13 Now, some people might say, well, 00:20:17:14 00:20:18:25 that's not barter because that 00:20:19:04 00:20:21:06 wasn't a deliberate 00:20:21:07 00:20:23:05 negotiation of terms and 00:20:23:06 00:20:24:21 people aren't even aware half 00:20:25:01 00:20:26:09 the time explicitly of that 00:20:26:13 00:20:27:13 exchange. 00:20:28:07 00:20:29:14 That's an entirely fair point. 00:20:29:21 00:20:31:09 But at the same time, what you do 00:20:31:10 00:20:33:01 have happening is a massive set of 00:20:33:05 00:20:34:17 exchanges without money, 00:20:35:03 00:20:36:25 which we just don't have the tools 00:20:36:26 00:20:37:25 to analyse. 00:20:38:03 00:20:39:13 I mean, in the American legal 00:20:39:14 00:20:41:01 system, the only way to measure 00:20:41:05 00:20:42:21 whether there's an antitrust abuse 00:20:43:12 00:20:45:12 is by looking at consumer prices. 00:20:45:13 00:20:46:24 There's no way in the legal system 00:20:46:25 00:20:48:14 to really measure what happens 00:20:48:22 00:20:50:08 if this monopoly abuse without 00:20:50:09 00:20:51:08 monetary prices. 00:20:51:25 00:20:53:11 Economists tend to measure almost 00:20:53:12 00:20:55:14 everything in life through money 00:20:55:15 00:20:56:21 as opposed to non-monetary 00:20:56:22 00:20:57:21 exchanges. 00:20:58:10 00:21:00:08 And when people evaluate companies, 00:21:00:16 00:21:01:22 they look at the things that they 00:21:01:23 00:21:03:09 can be counted on their balance 00:21:03:10 00:21:05:09 sheet, not the exchanges 00:21:05:12 00:21:06:12 that happen without money. 00:21:07:03 00:21:08:08 So there's a big problem here. 00:21:08:18 00:21:09:23 But if we ignore barter, 00:21:10:15 00:21:12:08 you really don't understand most of 00:21:12:11 00:21:14:01 what drives Silicon Valley today. 00:21:14:14 00:21:15:14 And I use the word barter because, 00:21:15:18 00:21:17:15 frankly, is the only word we've got 00:21:17:16 00:21:18:20 in English to describe a 00:21:19:04 00:21:20:12 non-monetary exchange. 00:21:21:01 00:21:22:17 And I also passionately believe if 00:21:22:22 00:21:25:09 we're going to build a tech sector 00:21:25:18 00:21:26:18 which people actually 00:21:27:14 00:21:28:14 have more trust and credibility - 00:21:29:01 00:21:30:25 have more credibility, then 00:21:30:26 00:21:32:13 we have to mention the word barter, 00:21:32:24 00:21:34:04 because once you mention 00:21:34:22 00:21:36:11 the word barter, you recognise 00:21:36:20 00:21:38:20 there's a two way exchange happening 00:21:39:00 00:21:40:00 with data. 00:21:40:06 00:21:41:08 It's one of the reasons I think that 00:21:41:09 00:21:43:21 many consumers actually accept 00:21:44:12 00:21:45:24 losing some of their privacy because 00:21:46:00 00:21:47:09 they like getting the other services 00:21:47:10 00:21:48:08 back. 00:21:48:09 00:21:50:06 But then we can start talking about 00:21:50:07 00:21:52:08 how to improve the terms 00:21:52:09 00:21:53:22 of trade, of barter. 00:21:54:00 00:21:55:19 That's a key thing, because to build 00:21:55:24 00:21:57:09 a better tech sector, we have 00:21:57:20 00:21:59:18 to make that barter trade 00:21:59:24 00:22:01:18 more transparent, 00:22:02:05 00:22:04:01 more - empower consumers 00:22:04:02 00:22:05:06 in relation to it. 00:22:05:24 00:22:07:15 They need to have data portability 00:22:07:17 00:22:09:05 between different providers, et 00:22:09:13 00:22:10:13 cetera, et cetera. 00:22:11:05 00:22:13:02 But that all starts with recognising 00:22:13:10 00:22:14:19 something that economists often 00:22:14:20 00:22:16:15 don't, which is not everything 00:22:16:16 00:22:18:07 in life happens via the medium of 00:22:18:08 00:22:19:07 money. 00:22:19:16 00:22:21:10 Excellent. So let's go to the second 00:22:21:11 00:22:23:09 part. So does GDPR solve that 00:22:23:10 00:22:24:09 problem? Does it help? 00:22:24:10 00:22:25:07 Does it hurt? 00:22:25:08 00:22:27:14 Does it make visible the invisible 00:22:27:15 00:22:28:14 exchanges? 00:22:28:22 00:22:30:17 I think the GDPR actually does 00:22:30:18 00:22:31:16 in some ways, because what you're 00:22:31:17 00:22:32:22 trying to do with GDPR is 00:22:33:17 00:22:35:03 to improve the terms of trade of 00:22:35:04 00:22:35:23 barter. 00:22:35:24 00:22:38:01 You're not saying you can't swap 00:22:38:02 00:22:39:07 data for services. 00:22:39:12 00:22:40:20 And by the way, I don't think most 00:22:40:21 00:22:42:08 people want to actually 00:22:42:11 00:22:43:11 reintermediate 00:22:44:15 00:22:46:02 these exchanges with money, in my 00:22:46:03 00:22:47:04 view, because you know, barter's 00:22:47:18 00:22:49:08 pretty efficient a lot of time in 00:22:49:13 00:22:50:14 the tech world today. 00:22:51:13 00:22:53:05 But GDPR does say we're going to try 00:22:53:06 00:22:54:19 and improve the terms of trade for 00:22:54:20 00:22:56:05 consumers by giving them more 00:22:56:14 00:22:57:21 protection in terms of how their 00:22:57:22 00:22:59:21 data is used, more awareness 00:22:59:22 00:23:01:04 if they want, although in fact most 00:23:01:05 00:23:02:08 consumers don't take it. 00:23:03:05 00:23:04:14 I think there is a big missing piece 00:23:04:15 00:23:06:07 of GDPR, which is that, to my mind, 00:23:06:18 00:23:08:03 one of the crucial things that have 00:23:08:04 00:23:09:15 to happen next in tech is that 00:23:09:23 00:23:11:12 consumers need portability of their 00:23:11:13 00:23:13:08 data in much 00:23:13:09 00:23:14:05 the same way that they have 00:23:14:06 00:23:15:14 portability of bank accounts. 00:23:15:15 00:23:16:20 And the onus in financial 00:23:17:10 00:23:19:10 services is on banks to make it easy 00:23:19:11 00:23:21:08 to swap service 00:23:21:09 00:23:23:01 provider, not the consumer. 00:23:23:02 00:23:24:15 If you have that in the tech world, 00:23:24:20 00:23:26:18 whereby I could switch social media 00:23:26:19 00:23:28:05 accounts or platforms and stuff 00:23:28:06 00:23:29:07 really easily, if you had that in 00:23:29:08 00:23:30:25 the tech world, there might start to 00:23:30:26 00:23:32:15 be more genuine competition between 00:23:32:16 00:23:34:01 big tech companies. 00:23:35:06 00:23:36:22 A question from Simon in London. 00:23:36:23 00:23:38:20 How do you explain the rise 00:23:39:06 00:23:40:15 of social media influencers? 00:23:41:06 00:23:42:07 Are they here to stay? 00:23:43:19 00:23:44:24 That's a great question. And I think 00:23:45:00 00:23:46:03 what you're seeing there is 00:23:46:06 00:23:47:25 something which, in fact, one of the 00:23:48:00 00:23:50:01 Oxford Said professors 00:23:50:02 00:23:51:22 talked about, which is a shift 00:23:51:23 00:23:53:02 in the patterns of trust, 00:23:53:18 00:23:55:08 as Rachel Botsman says in her book, 00:23:55:09 00:23:56:08 which is brilliant. 00:23:56:22 00:23:58:01 Essentially, there's two 00:23:58:17 00:24:00:01 types of trust in - that glue 00:24:00:21 00:24:02:11 societies and communities together. 00:24:03:03 00:24:04:08 And this is, again, the core thought 00:24:04:09 00:24:05:08 of anthropology. 00:24:05:12 00:24:07:07 You either get vertical patterns of 00:24:07:08 00:24:09:07 trust where people essentially trust 00:24:09:08 00:24:11:09 in a leader or an institution 00:24:11:10 00:24:12:17 or a hierarchy to glue them 00:24:13:06 00:24:14:20 together, or you have horizontal 00:24:15:10 00:24:16:20 form the trust where people kind of 00:24:16:21 00:24:18:07 trust each other, their peer group, 00:24:18:17 00:24:20:08 and essentially collaborate and 00:24:20:09 00:24:22:01 operate as a group in that way. 00:24:22:18 00:24:23:22 Now, historically, small 00:24:24:24 00:24:26:17 face to face communities have tended 00:24:26:18 00:24:28:10 to have more horizontal trust, 00:24:29:21 00:24:31:09 and that's still very prevalent in 00:24:31:10 00:24:32:21 many, many settings where, you 00:24:33:11 00:24:35:02 know your office workers, you know 00:24:35:07 00:24:36:10 your peer group, you know your 00:24:36:11 00:24:38:02 neighbours, and you kind of all hang 00:24:38:03 00:24:39:02 together and trust each other. 00:24:39:14 00:24:41:04 But obviously, as groups get bigger, 00:24:41:13 00:24:43:11 you start trusting more in 00:24:43:23 00:24:45:19 vertical systems because you 00:24:45:20 00:24:47:07 can't have everyone knowing everyone 00:24:47:08 00:24:48:07 else. 00:24:48:09 00:24:49:17 And that's why you get these sort of 00:24:49:18 00:24:51:12 companies, institutions where 00:24:51:13 00:24:52:22 essentially you're trusting a CEO. 00:24:53:14 00:24:55:05 Now, what is fascinating about the 00:24:55:10 00:24:57:13 digital world in the 21st century 00:24:57:25 00:24:59:09 is that although peer to peer 00:24:59:17 00:25:01:12 horizontal trust, used to be 00:25:01:16 00:25:03:13 small groups, the 00:25:03:14 00:25:05:02 launch of digital platforms means 00:25:05:03 00:25:06:17 you've created mechanisms to have 00:25:07:01 00:25:08:15 peer group horizontal trust on a 00:25:08:22 00:25:09:22 massive scale. 00:25:10:24 00:25:13:00 Rachel calls this distributed trust. 00:25:13:04 00:25:14:19 And that's kind of what drives 00:25:15:02 00:25:16:10 platforms like Uber. 00:25:16:17 00:25:18:14 It drives things like Airbnb 00:25:18:15 00:25:19:24 in some ways, it even drives 00:25:20:06 00:25:21:22 something like Bitcoin, 00:25:22:02 00:25:23:19 where you have ways of essentially 00:25:23:20 00:25:25:07 verifying each other online 00:25:25:16 00:25:27:05 and you essentially build trust that 00:25:27:06 00:25:28:05 way. 00:25:28:06 00:25:30:09 Now, social media influences 00:25:30:10 00:25:32:00 in some ways are tapping into that 00:25:32:01 00:25:33:18 because what you're having there is 00:25:33:20 00:25:35:07 the ability of people to start 00:25:35:16 00:25:37:21 influencing to a massive degree 00:25:38:04 00:25:39:17 people through these horizontal 00:25:40:04 00:25:41:09 networks and channels. 00:25:41:24 00:25:43:09 And that's quite different from the 00:25:43:10 00:25:44:17 traditional patterns, which we used 00:25:44:18 00:25:46:03 to be much more vertical 00:25:46:22 00:25:48:13 based. I mean, to give an example, 00:25:49:10 00:25:50:17 in the past, if you're going to go 00:25:50:18 00:25:52:16 to a restaurant, you might look 00:25:52:17 00:25:54:01 at the Zagat for 00:25:54:14 00:25:56:08 advice from an expert, someone who 00:25:56:09 00:25:57:08 you trusted upwards. 00:25:57:17 00:25:59:07 Now you're more likely to look 00:25:59:08 00:26:01:10 horizontally at, say, 00:26:01:19 00:26:03:14 online rating systems or 00:26:03:15 00:26:05:02 even social media influencers who 00:26:05:03 00:26:06:06 can actually get into the system. 00:26:06:20 00:26:08:11 Now, that's open to a lot of abuse 00:26:08:24 00:26:09:25 and manipulation. 00:26:10:07 00:26:12:01 And sometimes what seems like 00:26:12:15 00:26:14:16 peer to peer influence is actually 00:26:14:23 00:26:16:19 behind the scenes shaped 00:26:16:20 00:26:18:19 by powerful corporations 00:26:18:20 00:26:20:09 in a more vertical model. 00:26:20:21 00:26:22:18 But it's a fascinating pattern and 00:26:22:19 00:26:24:04 it shows that one of the most 00:26:24:20 00:26:26:13 important things that I think many 00:26:26:14 00:26:27:17 people have missed in the world of 00:26:27:18 00:26:29:13 consumer goods and 00:26:29:14 00:26:30:23 research and marketing in recent 00:26:30:24 00:26:32:11 years, is that 00:26:33:05 00:26:34:17 because we have the illusion in 00:26:35:06 00:26:36:09 the Western world that we're all 00:26:36:10 00:26:37:25 individualists with agency 00:26:38:10 00:26:39:14 to shape and choose our own 00:26:39:15 00:26:40:20 identities, we think that 00:26:41:11 00:26:43:06 we in our own heads are making 00:26:43:07 00:26:44:13 all our consumer decisions. 00:26:45:08 00:26:46:18 And so psychology, individual 00:26:47:01 00:26:48:19 psychology has been a very dominant 00:26:48:25 00:26:50:18 force in the world of consumer goods 00:26:50:19 00:26:51:18 marketing. 00:26:51:25 00:26:53:17 But anthropology says actually, no, 00:26:53:18 00:26:55:01 it's not just about the individual. 00:26:55:04 00:26:57:02 We're shaped by groups, too, in this 00:26:57:11 00:26:58:09 horizontal way. 00:26:58:10 00:26:59:09 And it matters. 00:26:59:16 00:27:01:15 So, long way to answer, but again, 00:27:01:16 00:27:03:04 I think that reinforces my point 00:27:03:05 00:27:04:23 about anthropology 00:27:05:07 00:27:06:07 being valuable. 00:27:07:02 00:27:08:16 So I'll take a question from Joanna 00:27:08:17 00:27:09:13 in Frankfurt. 00:27:09:14 00:27:11:16 Can you expand on the specific way 00:27:11:19 00:27:13:18 how a worm's eye view differ from 00:27:13:19 00:27:15:17 a bird's eye view and in somewhat 00:27:15:23 00:27:17:12 tongue in cheek, that birds tend 00:27:17:19 00:27:18:19 to be worms? 00:27:20:07 00:27:21:07 Yeah, I hadn't thought about that. 00:27:21:08 00:27:22:08 That's a good point. I better be 00:27:22:09 00:27:23:09 careful about that metaphor then 00:27:23:10 00:27:24:09 going forward. 00:27:25:13 00:27:26:15 Yeah, I mean, I'll give you a 00:27:26:16 00:27:27:15 tangible example. 00:27:27:16 00:27:29:15 If an economist is 00:27:29:16 00:27:31:14 studying, say, 00:27:31:15 00:27:32:20 educational systems, 00:27:33:19 00:27:35:07 they might gather all the macro 00:27:35:08 00:27:36:19 level statistics about schools 00:27:37:11 00:27:38:19 across the U.K. 00:27:39:21 00:27:41:21 They might do all kinds of models 00:27:41:22 00:27:43:15 or something looking at cost benefit 00:27:43:16 00:27:44:19 analysis in schools. 00:27:45:20 00:27:47:19 They might very much look top 00:27:47:20 00:27:49:13 down across the macro picture 00:27:49:23 00:27:51:10 and they would probably define 00:27:52:05 00:27:53:21 their field of study as being 00:27:53:22 00:27:55:18 schools or education. 00:27:56:25 00:27:58:16 If an anthropologist was looking at 00:27:59:14 00:28:01:07 education, they'd probably go and 00:28:01:11 00:28:03:01 sit inside a school room 00:28:03:24 00:28:05:22 for a month and 00:28:05:23 00:28:07:09 just observe everything 00:28:07:19 00:28:09:06 and they'd probably start with just 00:28:09:07 00:28:10:20 one or two schools, so you can have 00:28:10:21 00:28:13:00 an in-depth face to face study 00:28:13:08 00:28:14:21 and then try and see how pupils 00:28:15:10 00:28:16:18 in the school and teachers who are 00:28:16:19 00:28:18:05 experiencing everyday life, 00:28:19:04 00:28:20:07 bottom up, if you like. 00:28:21:08 00:28:23:11 Now, the flaw of the anthropology 00:28:23:12 00:28:25:05 model is it can be subjective; 00:28:25:12 00:28:26:18 it can be very localised. 00:28:27:04 00:28:28:21 You often end up extrapolating from 00:28:29:00 00:28:30:21 small to big in ways that can 00:28:30:22 00:28:31:22 be dangerous, and 00:28:32:17 00:28:34:15 it can also be undirected 00:28:34:16 00:28:36:13 and irritatingly vague to 00:28:36:14 00:28:37:16 many people who are economists, 00:28:37:17 00:28:39:23 because you don't end up with 00:28:40:07 00:28:41:21 a neat PowerPoint or anything like 00:28:41:22 00:28:43:13 that or nice algorithm or computer 00:28:43:22 00:28:44:22 model. 00:28:45:03 00:28:47:01 The upside is that 00:28:47:02 00:28:48:14 you can often get a very different 00:28:48:15 00:28:50:03 perspective from the bird's eye view 00:28:50:14 00:28:51:19 and a much richer, deeper 00:28:51:25 00:28:52:25 perspective. 00:28:53:11 00:28:54:17 And they don't have to be either or 00:28:54:18 00:28:56:08 they actually complement each other. 00:28:57:04 00:28:58:12 I sometimes joke that 00:28:59:04 00:29:01:00 anthropology can act a bit 00:29:01:01 00:29:02:18 like salt in food and that when you 00:29:02:23 00:29:03:24 add it in, it makes other 00:29:03:25 00:29:05:04 ingredients taste better 00:29:05:24 00:29:07:01 and binds them together. 00:29:07:09 00:29:09:01 And so anthropology plus economics 00:29:09:16 00:29:11:04 is a very powerful combination. 00:29:11:11 00:29:12:11 Or anthropology plus finance 00:29:13:10 00:29:14:23 or anthropology plus 00:29:15:12 00:29:16:14 an MBA, I'd say. 00:29:17:18 00:29:19:02 Well, in fact, I wrote a research 00:29:19:03 00:29:20:01 project at Oxford. 00:29:20:02 00:29:21:01 We have economists and 00:29:21:17 00:29:23:07 anthropologists working side by 00:29:23:08 00:29:24:19 side, and I can attest to what 00:29:25:03 00:29:26:03 you're saying. 00:29:26:23 00:29:28:06 So, Gillian, in your book, you talk 00:29:28:07 00:29:29:10 about the Hawthorne effect, the 00:29:29:11 00:29:30:21 famous Hawthorne effect, that 00:29:31:06 00:29:32:18 people behave differently if they 00:29:32:19 00:29:33:20 know they're being observed. 00:29:33:21 00:29:35:15 And a number of books and movies 00:29:35:16 00:29:37:05 have, as well as academic studies 00:29:37:17 00:29:38:17 have captured this. 00:29:39:18 00:29:41:14 And anthropologists, I think, worry 00:29:41:15 00:29:42:21 a great deal about destroying the 00:29:42:22 00:29:43:21 cultures they observe. 00:29:44:15 00:29:46:04 How do you walk this line with the 00:29:46:05 00:29:47:17 topic like Moral Money, where I 00:29:47:23 00:29:49:01 think you actually have 00:29:49:20 00:29:51:10 a point of view that companies and 00:29:51:11 00:29:52:17 markets need to accept the 00:29:52:18 00:29:54:19 responsibility of their actions 00:29:54:20 00:29:55:19 or inactions? 00:29:56:19 00:29:57:19 Well, there are several different 00:29:57:25 00:29:59:01 questions there firstly, the 00:29:59:02 00:30:00:17 anthropologist do worry enormously 00:30:00:19 00:30:01:19 about changing the 00:30:02:16 00:30:05:01 material they study both 00:30:05:02 00:30:06:24 on a micro level 00:30:06:25 00:30:08:19 of in terms of like if I'm observing 00:30:09:04 00:30:11:03 a group or living amongst them, can 00:30:11:04 00:30:12:12 I really pretend to be observing 00:30:12:13 00:30:14:02 anything in a remotely neutral way? 00:30:14:11 00:30:16:00 And anthropologists tied themselves 00:30:16:01 00:30:17:05 up in knots in a kind of 00:30:17:11 00:30:18:12 post-structuralist way in the late 00:30:18:13 00:30:19:13 20th century, and 00:30:20:13 00:30:21:21 sometimes tried to almost commit 00:30:21:22 00:30:23:08 intellectual suicide by saying they 00:30:23:09 00:30:24:14 have no right to study anything, 00:30:24:22 00:30:26:14 which, you know, on one level is 00:30:27:04 00:30:28:18 I understand the qualms, but is also 00:30:28:19 00:30:30:04 not very useful. And you do the best 00:30:30:05 00:30:32:02 you can to acknowledge how you 00:30:32:03 00:30:33:15 may be affecting people around you, 00:30:33:16 00:30:34:15 but also recognising 00:30:35:11 00:30:37:04 that it's still worthy of study. 00:30:38:02 00:30:39:15 On a macro level, anthropologists 00:30:39:16 00:30:41:06 often worry about whether their 00:30:41:11 00:30:43:09 presence in communities 00:30:43:10 00:30:44:20 which have not had a lot of contact 00:30:44:21 00:30:46:00 in the past with Western 00:30:47:14 00:30:48:14 societies might be 00:30:49:11 00:30:50:21 influenced or infiltrated or even 00:30:50:22 00:30:52:05 destroyed by contact 00:30:53:11 00:30:54:15 as a result of anthropologists. 00:30:54:16 00:30:55:19 And there's a big field 00:30:56:18 00:30:57:18 of literature 00:30:58:14 00:30:59:14 about that. 00:31:00:04 00:31:01:16 So that's very much an issue and 00:31:01:17 00:31:02:20 something anthropologists are still 00:31:02:21 00:31:03:20 grappling with. 00:31:03:22 00:31:05:19 But in terms of how we 00:31:05:20 00:31:07:06 as a journalist, I'm really talking 00:31:07:07 00:31:08:08 to journalists respond 00:31:09:10 00:31:10:23 to this question, 00:31:11:23 00:31:13:14 something like Moral Money in many 00:31:13:17 00:31:15:13 ways epitomises the problem or the 00:31:15:14 00:31:17:10 challenge, but also the 00:31:17:11 00:31:18:16 potential opportunity 00:31:19:12 00:31:21:07 in the sense that Moral Money 00:31:21:13 00:31:23:09 seeks to be neutral and 00:31:23:10 00:31:24:20 comment on the sustainability 00:31:25:05 00:31:26:05 movement. 00:31:26:17 00:31:28:03 It's drummed into journalists that 00:31:28:04 00:31:29:08 you try and keep opinion 00:31:30:11 00:31:31:14 and reporting separate. 00:31:32:12 00:31:33:21 It's becoming very hard these days 00:31:33:22 00:31:35:07 as the media 00:31:35:23 00:31:37:21 world changes to embrace things 00:31:37:22 00:31:39:06 like newsletters, which are kind of 00:31:39:07 00:31:40:07 a hybrid. 00:31:40:21 00:31:42:13 But we try to cover the waterfront 00:31:42:14 00:31:44:17 and neither endorse nor 00:31:44:18 00:31:45:18 excessively knock 00:31:46:19 00:31:48:22 down the sustainability movement. 00:31:48:23 00:31:50:22 We try and simply expose what's 00:31:50:23 00:31:52:05 happening for good and bad. 00:31:53:08 00:31:54:09 So that's what we're trying to do. 00:31:54:10 00:31:55:11 We don't always manage do it, but 00:31:55:12 00:31:56:12 that's what we're trying to do. 00:31:56:17 00:31:58:09 And yet at the same time, we can't 00:31:58:10 00:31:59:24 ignore the fact that the very 00:32:00:20 00:32:02:08 fact there is something like 00:32:02:15 00:32:04:02 Moral Money as a platform on the 00:32:04:03 00:32:05:07 Financial Times covering 00:32:05:23 00:32:07:07 sustainability has certainly 00:32:08:08 00:32:09:15 acted as a spur to debate, 00:32:10:05 00:32:11:09 we think, anyway in this 00:32:12:04 00:32:13:14 world. And so we're not just a 00:32:13:15 00:32:15:05 neutral fly on the wall observer. 00:32:15:14 00:32:16:18 The very fact we're covering 00:32:16:19 00:32:18:18 something is fostering 00:32:18:19 00:32:20:17 change in itself, both good and bad. 00:32:21:16 00:32:23:09 We are very proud that we do appear 00:32:23:10 00:32:25:14 to have played a role in 00:32:25:15 00:32:27:07 setting the debate quite often in 00:32:27:16 00:32:28:18 this world at Moral Money. 00:32:29:23 00:32:31:06 And so that is the predicament. 00:32:31:07 00:32:32:23 And at the end of the day, 00:32:33:20 00:32:35:08 you can beat yourself up about it 00:32:35:09 00:32:37:00 and get into intellectual knots or, 00:32:37:01 00:32:38:21 as I say, commit intellectual 00:32:38:22 00:32:40:04 suicide and say there's no point in 00:32:40:05 00:32:41:19 doing anything, or you simply say 00:32:42:04 00:32:43:06 we're going to try to the best of 00:32:43:07 00:32:44:14 our ability to cover the world of 00:32:44:15 00:32:45:14 sustainability, to 00:32:46:13 00:32:47:17 uncover the social silences. 00:32:48:16 00:32:50:04 And much of what sustainability 00:32:51:04 00:32:53:07 is about doing is actually 00:32:53:08 00:32:54:24 about trying to get companies 00:32:55:05 00:32:57:01 and investors to think about things 00:32:57:02 00:32:58:13 that used to be an area of 00:32:58:23 00:33:01:08 social silence or an externality 00:33:01:09 00:33:03:12 to the model like the environment. 00:33:04:08 00:33:05:22 We're going to try and do that and 00:33:05:23 00:33:07:01 do it to the best of our ability, 00:33:07:02 00:33:08:15 but be constantly self-critical 00:33:08:16 00:33:10:03 about where we are failing. 00:33:11:19 00:33:13:18 And so with that in mind 00:33:13:19 00:33:15:03 and by the way, I'm going to ask you 00:33:15:04 00:33:16:04 to do a big shout out to 00:33:16:05 00:33:17:21 Moral Money, because I think we both 00:33:17:22 00:33:18:21 assume that everybody knows what 00:33:18:22 00:33:19:22 we're talking about. 00:33:20:01 00:33:21:18 But it's this incredibly popular 00:33:21:19 00:33:23:01 newsletter that you created 00:33:23:14 00:33:25:02 two years ago and it's got 00:33:25:03 00:33:26:04 incredible circulation. 00:33:26:05 00:33:28:05 But I'll put that in there 00:33:28:06 00:33:29:21 somewhere, make sure everybody gets 00:33:29:22 00:33:31:18 there. The great thing about 00:33:32:00 00:33:33:03 Moral Money, but a question from 00:33:33:04 00:33:34:20 Catherine that may or may not relate 00:33:34:21 00:33:35:24 to what you've just said, 00:33:36:18 00:33:38:05 Catherine Chung, how do we use 00:33:38:16 00:33:40:18 an anthropologist angle to help 00:33:40:19 00:33:42:07 organisations and leadership to 00:33:42:08 00:33:44:03 motivate changes and embrace 00:33:44:04 00:33:45:16 resistance to changes? 00:33:46:12 00:33:47:13 Well, I think that actually 00:33:47:14 00:33:49:04 anthropology is brilliant in this 00:33:49:10 00:33:50:23 respect for several reasons. 00:33:51:12 00:33:53:14 One is that at the very core 00:33:53:15 00:33:54:16 of anthropology 00:33:55:14 00:33:57:19 is the idea to quote Genevieve 00:33:57:20 00:33:59:10 Bell, who's been an anthropologist 00:33:59:11 00:34:01:12 working intel, that 00:34:01:13 00:34:03:08 you can't assume that everyone 00:34:03:09 00:34:04:18 else thinks the way that you do, 00:34:05:05 00:34:07:04 which is incredibly obvious 00:34:07:15 00:34:09:11 and everyone kind of knows that. 00:34:09:23 00:34:11:22 But it's also incredibly common 00:34:12:10 00:34:14:10 that executives forget 00:34:14:24 00:34:16:08 because, you know, if you have 00:34:16:09 00:34:18:00 slithered your way up the greasy 00:34:18:01 00:34:19:18 pole of a corporate hierarchy 00:34:20:20 00:34:22:06 and end up sequestered in some 00:34:22:15 00:34:24:03 nice fancy corner office 00:34:24:13 00:34:26:10 and are incredibly busy 00:34:26:19 00:34:28:06 and have to constantly project 00:34:28:12 00:34:30:03 self-confidence and tell everyone 00:34:30:04 00:34:31:11 else and yourself that know what 00:34:31:12 00:34:32:12 you're doing, it's so 00:34:33:11 00:34:34:24 easy to end up being cloistered 00:34:35:23 00:34:38:01 or bunkered in a 00:34:38:08 00:34:39:19 pretty narrow world view, to get 00:34:40:11 00:34:41:20 tunnel vision, and to assume that, 00:34:41:21 00:34:43:04 you know, you think you are self 00:34:43:05 00:34:43:24 evidently right. 00:34:44:00 00:34:45:06 And therefore everyone else must 00:34:45:07 00:34:46:06 think like you. 00:34:46:14 00:34:48:09 And I say that not because I'm 00:34:48:22 00:34:50:07 using some kind of theoretical 00:34:50:08 00:34:51:21 framework, but because I've seen 00:34:52:04 00:34:53:06 that exactly happen on 00:34:54:03 00:34:56:01 Wall Street and in the tech 00:34:56:02 00:34:57:25 sector, just to name two examples. 00:34:59:22 00:35:01:12 I've often said the reason why the 00:35:01:13 00:35:03:10 2008 crisis happened was not 00:35:03:11 00:35:05:07 because financial company 00:35:05:08 00:35:07:05 CEOs and most of the universe were 00:35:07:06 00:35:09:02 mad, evil, greedy or 00:35:09:03 00:35:10:24 crazy, although maybe a few were. 00:35:11:07 00:35:13:06 But it's because they were beset 00:35:13:07 00:35:14:18 with tunnel vision and assumed 00:35:15:10 00:35:16:13 everyone else was thinking the way 00:35:16:14 00:35:18:02 that they they did, same in tech 00:35:18:14 00:35:19:14 sector. 00:35:20:00 00:35:21:12 So the first thing you do if you 00:35:21:13 00:35:23:01 want to actually effect change in 00:35:23:02 00:35:25:17 the company is to embrace 00:35:25:21 00:35:27:06 the core anthropology idea of 00:35:27:15 00:35:28:15 empathy and listening 00:35:29:17 00:35:31:01 to people and trying to see the 00:35:31:02 00:35:33:09 world through other people's eyes 00:35:33:22 00:35:35:22 and also to try and see the social 00:35:35:23 00:35:37:10 silences in your own company, 00:35:37:18 00:35:39:04 which might be blocking change. 00:35:40:01 00:35:41:09 And it may be very hard for you to 00:35:41:10 00:35:42:06 see that. 00:35:42:07 00:35:44:02 But the reality is that 00:35:44:11 00:35:46:04 often having outsiders come in and 00:35:46:05 00:35:47:04 explain that is much 00:35:48:01 00:35:49:15 more effective and to go back to 00:35:49:24 00:35:51:05 the Hawthorne study, and this is a 00:35:51:06 00:35:53:16 very sort of shallow example 00:35:54:07 00:35:56:10 and it's very dated, but when 00:35:56:11 00:35:57:19 the Hawthorne study took place and 00:35:57:20 00:35:58:17 this was when a group of 00:35:58:18 00:36:00:11 anthropologists went in and studied 00:36:02:10 00:36:03:19 big, big telecoms company in 00:36:04:07 00:36:06:01 the 1930s in Chicago, 00:36:07:08 00:36:08:18 the senior manager there couldn't 00:36:08:19 00:36:10:20 understand why some 00:36:10:21 00:36:12:18 of their own employees were so 00:36:13:00 00:36:14:12 uninterested, it seemed, in getting 00:36:14:13 00:36:15:19 promoted and getting paid more 00:36:15:20 00:36:16:17 money. 00:36:16:18 00:36:18:06 And it just didn't make sense to 00:36:18:07 00:36:19:12 them looking at the world through 00:36:19:13 00:36:20:12 their eyes. 00:36:20:24 00:36:22:05 And it wasn't until people did 00:36:22:06 00:36:23:18 bottom up, worm's eye study and 00:36:24:04 00:36:25:18 actually spoke to the employees 00:36:26:01 00:36:27:07 and looked at how they were 00:36:27:08 00:36:28:15 operating, they realised 00:36:29:05 00:36:30:22 that their culture developed amongst 00:36:30:23 00:36:32:10 the workforce, that if somebody 00:36:33:07 00:36:34:14 actually got promoted, they often 00:36:34:15 00:36:36:19 got ostracised 00:36:36:20 00:36:38:02 by their group and socially 00:36:38:12 00:36:39:11 punished. 00:36:39:12 00:36:41:04 So actually the incentive structure 00:36:41:05 00:36:42:20 for them at the base level wasn't 00:36:43:10 00:36:44:24 as obvious as the manager thought. 00:36:45:11 00:36:47:07 And in my book, I talk about 00:36:47:08 00:36:48:23 similar examples at General Motors, 00:36:49:08 00:36:50:08 where essentially 00:36:51:11 00:36:52:23 the managers of General Motors had 00:36:52:24 00:36:55:02 no idea what was happening 00:36:55:07 00:36:57:00 down in the locker rooms, on the 00:36:57:01 00:36:58:02 factory floors and why 00:36:58:21 00:37:00:19 so many of their grandiose plans 00:37:01:02 00:37:02:21 simply kept running into the dust 00:37:03:05 00:37:04:15 because of what was happening at the 00:37:04:16 00:37:05:20 grassroots of the company. 00:37:07:04 00:37:08:20 So, which is a great chapter in the 00:37:08:21 00:37:09:20 book. 00:37:10:10 00:37:12:04 In a in a spirit of a little bit of 00:37:12:05 00:37:13:12 intellectual whiplash here, 00:37:14:02 00:37:15:02 a question from 00:37:15:23 00:37:16:22 Tafa Agashian. 00:37:16:23 00:37:18:13 Apologies if I'm mispronouncing both 00:37:18:14 00:37:19:18 the name and the question too. 00:37:20:12 00:37:21:20 Do you think that Platonist 00:37:21:22 00:37:23:17 philosophy in the core culture of 00:37:23:18 00:37:25:12 Tajikistan might be closer to Soviet 00:37:25:23 00:37:27:17 communism than capitalism? 00:37:28:22 00:37:29:20 Well, I think that's a great 00:37:29:21 00:37:31:00 question. I suspect there aren't 00:37:31:01 00:37:32:02 that many people on the - 00:37:32:24 00:37:34:19 watching who have a great sort of 00:37:34:20 00:37:36:25 passionate interest in the 00:37:36:26 00:37:38:18 philosophy and intellectual thought 00:37:38:23 00:37:39:23 of Tajikistan. 00:37:40:09 00:37:41:09 I do. 00:37:41:15 00:37:43:09 One of my many frustrations today is 00:37:43:16 00:37:45:04 that people outside 00:37:45:22 00:37:46:22 Central Asia in 00:37:47:19 00:37:49:04 the West think that Islam is a 00:37:49:05 00:37:50:07 monolithic whole 00:37:51:01 00:37:52:16 and tend to write off a lot of 00:37:52:20 00:37:54:01 Islamic culture because their own 00:37:54:02 00:37:55:01 prejudice 00:37:55:22 00:37:58:04 is all basically similar to Wahabi 00:37:58:21 00:37:59:19 thinking. 00:37:59:20 00:38:01:14 In fact, in Tajikistan of the very 00:38:01:15 00:38:03:16 rich tradition of Sufism, 00:38:04:01 00:38:05:13 which is a very synchronistic 00:38:05:14 00:38:06:13 thought, if not 00:38:07:14 00:38:09:04 a fundamentalist way of looking at 00:38:09:05 00:38:10:04 the world at all. 00:38:10:10 00:38:11:16 And it's much more about 00:38:11:17 00:38:13:03 collaboration and all the rest 00:38:13:13 00:38:15:11 of it. And yes, it probably is more 00:38:15:12 00:38:17:09 similar to a sort of communist 00:38:17:10 00:38:19:04 socialist collectivist mentality 00:38:19:16 00:38:21:03 than a capitalist one. 00:38:21:19 00:38:23:08 In fact, briefly, the reason why 00:38:23:17 00:38:25:17 I came to think that the 00:38:25:18 00:38:27:17 Soviet communist system and Islam 00:38:27:18 00:38:29:06 had coexisted quite well on the 00:38:29:07 00:38:30:15 ground in Tajikistan was actually 00:38:30:16 00:38:32:01 less to do with that and more 00:38:32:15 00:38:34:21 to do with the way that the Tajiks 00:38:34:22 00:38:36:04 were dividing their space 00:38:36:25 00:38:39:04 and genders and symbolically 00:38:39:11 00:38:40:13 recognising a very big 00:38:41:07 00:38:43:04 gap between public and private, 00:38:43:09 00:38:44:11 male and female, space 00:38:45:11 00:38:46:24 and symbols. And very broadly, 00:38:47:09 00:38:49:07 very roughly speaking, the public 00:38:49:08 00:38:50:20 male sector was associated with 00:38:51:00 00:38:52:03 Islam and communism. 00:38:52:15 00:38:54:09 The private female domestic sector 00:38:54:18 00:38:56:08 was associated with Tajik Islamic 00:38:56:15 00:38:57:13 identity. 00:38:57:14 00:38:59:00 And because they were separated in 00:38:59:01 00:39:01:07 the minds and lives and physical 00:39:01:11 00:39:03:08 arenas of everyday life, 00:39:03:22 00:39:04:24 they managed to co-exist quite 00:39:04:25 00:39:05:25 happily. 00:39:06:00 00:39:07:18 It's something which Western people 00:39:08:01 00:39:09:22 reared in a Protestant Christian 00:39:09:23 00:39:11:10 tradition find it almost impossible 00:39:11:11 00:39:12:23 to understand the idea that you 00:39:13:07 00:39:15:01 can have a situational difference to 00:39:15:02 00:39:16:15 that degree within one culture, 00:39:16:25 00:39:18:13 because Protestant Christianity 00:39:18:21 00:39:20:20 tends to presume that 00:39:20:21 00:39:22:06 we have to be consistent in all 00:39:22:07 00:39:23:02 areas of our life. 00:39:23:03 00:39:24:20 That's a core idea within the 00:39:24:21 00:39:25:20 Christian tradition, 00:39:26:16 00:39:27:20 but it's not universal. 00:39:27:21 00:39:29:03 And the core point without going 00:39:29:04 00:39:30:20 into details is that 00:39:31:10 00:39:32:25 we can't assume that the cultural 00:39:33:02 00:39:34:16 assumptions we have unthinkingly 00:39:34:22 00:39:36:12 absorbed from our own environment, 00:39:36:21 00:39:38:13 whether it's a microclimate of the 00:39:38:14 00:39:40:17 CEO suite or wider 00:39:40:18 00:39:41:24 Western culture, we cannot 00:39:42:14 00:39:44:12 assume that they're held by everyone 00:39:44:13 00:39:46:02 else. And if we do, 00:39:46:09 00:39:47:19 we end up making mistakes and 00:39:48:04 00:39:49:12 missing opportunities too. 00:39:50:18 00:39:51:24 Great. Well, thank you for that 00:39:52:00 00:39:54:03 detailed answer to a very 00:39:54:07 00:39:55:07 careful question. 00:39:55:18 00:39:57:02 I want to focus a bit on the 00:39:57:05 00:39:59:02 difference between anthropologists 00:39:59:03 00:40:00:09 and journalists for a moment. 00:40:00:17 00:40:02:02 So as an anthropologist, you have 00:40:02:03 00:40:03:17 the luxury of an extended period of 00:40:03:18 00:40:05:07 observation. You were saying in 00:40:06:02 00:40:07:07 Tajikistand that, you know, what you 00:40:07:08 00:40:08:24 concluded at the beginning or what 00:40:09:04 00:40:10:06 you thought in the beginning was 00:40:10:07 00:40:11:08 different than what you concluded at 00:40:11:09 00:40:12:04 the end of six months. 00:40:12:05 00:40:13:14 And I suppose if you were 00:40:14:04 00:40:15:09 a journalist, you had a daily 00:40:15:10 00:40:16:10 deadline and you had to write the 00:40:16:11 00:40:17:22 article after two months or one 00:40:17:23 00:40:19:04 month, it might have been different 00:40:19:05 00:40:20:14 than the article you'd write after a 00:40:20:15 00:40:22:01 year. So how do you - how does 00:40:22:14 00:40:24:01 the difference between the time 00:40:24:02 00:40:25:23 frames that an anthropologist have 00:40:26:06 00:40:27:18 and the time frames that say, a 00:40:27:20 00:40:28:23 journalist have when you're on 00:40:28:24 00:40:30:22 deadline all the time affect 00:40:30:23 00:40:31:22 how you practise Anthro Vision? 00:40:32:10 00:40:33:18 Or does it make you do your 00:40:33:21 00:40:35:19 journalism different, holding back 00:40:36:00 00:40:37:01 because you're not quite sure if 00:40:37:02 00:40:38:03 you've got the story right? 00:40:38:18 00:40:40:03 Well, you make a great point there. 00:40:40:04 00:40:42:01 And the reality is that in part, 00:40:42:03 00:40:44:17 it's a question of scale 00:40:44:18 00:40:46:09 and speed in that anthropologists 00:40:47:06 00:40:49:00 write and study slowly 00:40:49:20 00:40:51:12 for a very small audience and have 00:40:51:13 00:40:53:03 the ability to think about nuance 00:40:53:07 00:40:54:13 and context and basically 00:40:55:11 00:40:56:11 be very thoughtful. 00:40:57:05 00:40:58:18 Unfortunately, journalists are often 00:40:58:19 00:40:59:22 operating very fast and 00:41:01:01 00:41:03:07 they have to produce content 00:41:03:14 00:41:05:08 which needs to be quickly understood 00:41:05:09 00:41:06:22 by a very large group of people. 00:41:07:08 00:41:09:09 And invariably that will lead 00:41:09:10 00:41:10:24 to mistakes, 00:41:11:12 00:41:13:18 errors, as much of omission as 00:41:13:19 00:41:15:02 actual deliberate mistakes. 00:41:15:23 00:41:17:09 And it leads them to basically 00:41:17:21 00:41:19:06 often pander to stereotypes. 00:41:19:13 00:41:20:17 I mean, to give one example linked 00:41:20:18 00:41:22:04 to my last answer, 00:41:23:00 00:41:24:20 when I went back to Tajikistan as a 00:41:24:21 00:41:26:17 journalist in 93 and 00:41:26:18 00:41:28:04 94 during Civil War, 00:41:28:20 00:41:30:04 I realised that most of the other 00:41:30:05 00:41:31:24 journalists were saying the war had 00:41:32:00 00:41:33:05 happened because Islamic 00:41:33:06 00:41:34:16 fundamentalists were battling 00:41:34:17 00:41:36:02 against the communist regime. 00:41:36:23 00:41:37:24 And it was all about Islamic 00:41:37:25 00:41:39:16 fundamentalism, basically creating 00:41:40:01 00:41:41:01 this war. 00:41:41:02 00:41:42:17 And in fact, on the ground, the 00:41:42:18 00:41:44:12 reality was much more subtle than 00:41:44:13 00:41:46:07 that in that it really was an 00:41:46:12 00:41:47:17 interregional fight. 00:41:48:05 00:41:49:20 It wasn't really about Islam versus 00:41:49:21 00:41:50:22 communism at all. 00:41:51:08 00:41:52:22 Now, on one level, I don't blame 00:41:52:23 00:41:54:11 journalists for writing that because 00:41:54:20 00:41:56:12 that basically pandered to their own 00:41:56:13 00:41:58:14 ideas or rather, fitted 00:41:58:15 00:41:59:13 with their own ideas. 00:41:59:14 00:42:00:10 And it was something their own 00:42:00:11 00:42:01:17 readers could understand. 00:42:02:20 00:42:04:09 At the same time, it illustrates the 00:42:04:10 00:42:05:19 need for a constant critical 00:42:06:08 00:42:08:08 reappraisal in journalism 00:42:08:16 00:42:10:12 and above all else, a willingness 00:42:10:13 00:42:12:12 to explore both social 00:42:12:13 00:42:14:05 silences, what people aren't talking 00:42:14:06 00:42:15:11 about, and to think about 00:42:16:04 00:42:17:14 how the cultural assumptions and 00:42:17:15 00:42:18:19 tribalism of the media is 00:42:19:15 00:42:21:02 affecting their own view of the 00:42:21:03 00:42:22:02 world. 00:42:22:14 00:42:24:11 The tragedy today is that 00:42:24:20 00:42:27:01 doing that requires time and space 00:42:27:02 00:42:28:07 and money and journalism, 00:42:29:09 00:42:30:15 and the media is under so much 00:42:30:16 00:42:32:02 pressure that it often doesn't have 00:42:32:03 00:42:33:02 any of that. 00:42:33:03 00:42:34:23 And on top of that, you know, 00:42:34:25 00:42:36:04 journalists are fighting for 00:42:36:05 00:42:38:03 attention in a world that 00:42:38:12 00:42:39:20 there's a lot of competition for 00:42:39:21 00:42:41:18 attention and it's very noisy. 00:42:42:17 00:42:44:10 The last point I'd make, though, is 00:42:44:11 00:42:45:23 that one trick I often try to tell 00:42:45:24 00:42:47:05 people is to imagine dominoes. 00:42:47:24 00:42:48:24 Not in a sense of dominoes all 00:42:50:00 00:42:51:17 toppling over in a chain reaction, 00:42:51:18 00:42:53:02 which is how the metaphor is 00:42:53:10 00:42:54:20 normally used, but if you think 00:42:54:21 00:42:56:13 about how a domino game is played in 00:42:56:14 00:42:57:23 that, you have two halves of a 00:42:57:24 00:42:59:22 domino piece and the game 00:42:59:23 00:43:01:15 is trying to match up one half of 00:43:01:16 00:43:02:20 your piece with another half with 00:43:02:21 00:43:03:20 someone else's piece. 00:43:04:04 00:43:05:11 But then you have the other half, 00:43:05:12 00:43:06:11 which can be different. 00:43:06:19 00:43:08:06 And so good journalism today, I 00:43:08:07 00:43:09:06 think, finds a 00:43:10:08 00:43:12:01 hook that the audience will 00:43:12:02 00:43:14:06 recognise, even if it actually 00:43:14:15 00:43:16:22 reinforces existing stereotypes 00:43:17:08 00:43:19:02 and they hook the audience into read 00:43:19:06 00:43:21:08 on that basis, but then gives 00:43:21:09 00:43:23:09 them the other half of domino, an 00:43:23:10 00:43:24:10 entirely different set of 00:43:24:11 00:43:26:02 information that might expose social 00:43:26:03 00:43:28:09 silences that get them to rethink. 00:43:28:15 00:43:30:16 So you get people to think, to read 00:43:30:23 00:43:31:23 and then to rethink. 00:43:31:24 00:43:32:23 That's the goal. 00:43:33:04 00:43:34:17 But boy, is it easier said than 00:43:34:20 00:43:36:12 done. It's a lifetime's work. 00:43:37:08 00:43:38:08 And your editor has to give you a 00:43:38:09 00:43:39:20 lot of space in order to get to the 00:43:39:21 00:43:41:05 below the fold part of the story. 00:43:42:01 00:43:43:08 And humility. I mean, I often say 00:43:43:12 00:43:45:10 when I was running the FT editorial 00:43:45:11 00:43:46:13 operations in America for a number 00:43:46:14 00:43:48:00 of years, and I used to say to 00:43:48:04 00:43:49:09 people, never forget on a 00:43:50:00 00:43:51:00 good day we get 40 00:43:51:21 00:43:52:21 percent of the truth. 00:43:53:04 00:43:54:07 You know, I think our competitors 00:43:54:08 00:43:56:01 get 30 percent, but there's still 60 00:43:56:10 00:43:57:10 percent we don't know. 00:43:57:14 00:43:59:17 So always be open to 00:43:59:18 00:44:01:05 listening to people afterwards. 00:44:02:09 00:44:04:05 So we've got about 15 minutes 00:44:04:06 00:44:05:19 again before participants please 00:44:06:03 00:44:07:03 send your questions. 00:44:07:09 00:44:09:00 We've got a bunch that I'll get to 00:44:09:04 00:44:09:23 in a second. 00:44:09:24 00:44:11:09 But I want to ask a parochial 00:44:11:17 00:44:12:17 question for a moment. 00:44:13:12 00:44:15:06 Using your superpowers of Anthro 00:44:15:07 00:44:16:13 Vision, and I think you should 00:44:16:14 00:44:18:01 market this as a superpower, by the 00:44:18:02 00:44:19:10 way, let's turn our attention to 00:44:19:11 00:44:21:01 business schools, the world that I 00:44:21:05 00:44:22:05 live in. 00:44:22:07 00:44:23:12 What are your observations about 00:44:23:13 00:44:25:01 them? Are we exemplars of WERID, 00:44:25:04 00:44:26:20 which is an acronym I hadn't heard 00:44:26:21 00:44:27:22 until I read your book, which is 00:44:27:23 00:44:29:17 Western, Educated, Individualistic, 00:44:29:18 00:44:30:18 Rich, and Democratic? 00:44:31:04 00:44:32:10 What do you see with your Anthro 00:44:32:11 00:44:33:10 Vision eyeglasses 00:44:34:16 00:44:36:03 on when you look at business 00:44:36:04 00:44:37:05 education in business schools? 00:44:38:06 00:44:39:01 You're actually in a much better 00:44:39:02 00:44:40:19 position to answer this than me for 00:44:40:22 00:44:42:04 two reasons. Firstly, that 00:44:42:20 00:44:43:24 you did that wonderful study 00:44:43:25 00:44:45:07 recently of what happened to 00:44:45:08 00:44:46:09 business schools in World War II 00:44:47:04 00:44:48:10 or the last time there was a really 00:44:48:11 00:44:49:11 big shock. 00:44:50:00 00:44:50:21 I think you should go out and write 00:44:50:22 00:44:51:17 a book about what's happening to 00:44:51:18 00:44:53:03 business schools now, but in the 00:44:53:04 00:44:55:02 pandemic, but also because 00:44:55:03 00:44:56:08 I know that the Oxford Said Business 00:44:56:09 00:44:58:13 School has tried to widen the lens 00:44:58:23 00:45:00:10 and look at business in a much 00:45:00:22 00:45:02:22 more broad based way 00:45:03:03 00:45:04:00 than in the past. 00:45:04:01 00:45:05:03 And for that, I salute you. 00:45:06:02 00:45:07:02 And you are looking at a lot of 00:45:07:03 00:45:08:24 social silences like things, 00:45:09:05 00:45:10:18 the environment and things like 00:45:10:24 00:45:11:24 that. 00:45:12:04 00:45:13:03 I think the institution of business 00:45:13:04 00:45:14:17 schools is fascinating because 00:45:15:10 00:45:16:18 essentially they've been operating a 00:45:16:19 00:45:18:18 bit like seminaries 00:45:18:19 00:45:19:25 in the mediaeval church in 00:45:20:17 00:45:22:10 the sense that they not only create 00:45:22:11 00:45:23:13 networks of people who are 00:45:23:14 00:45:25:15 inculcated in the same set of ideas, 00:45:26:02 00:45:27:09 but they also in many ways 00:45:28:05 00:45:30:10 actually foster this 00:45:30:22 00:45:32:02 mental framework, 00:45:32:19 00:45:34:07 which has in the past very much 00:45:34:18 00:45:36:14 assumed that business and finance 00:45:36:22 00:45:38:24 was an activity aside 00:45:39:06 00:45:40:07 from the rest of life. 00:45:40:08 00:45:41:13 That's why you have specialised 00:45:41:14 00:45:43:11 business schools, that 00:45:43:14 00:45:45:21 much of it was defined and mediated 00:45:45:22 00:45:47:23 through money, which is why you use 00:45:47:24 00:45:49:09 corporate accounting courses, 00:45:49:19 00:45:51:01 that everything that really mattered 00:45:51:02 00:45:52:05 could be captured on the balance 00:45:52:06 00:45:53:19 sheet, which is, again, why there's 00:45:53:20 00:45:54:23 been a lot of focus on corporate 00:45:54:24 00:45:56:06 accounting, and that it was 00:45:56:21 00:45:58:16 a game that people played at certain 00:45:58:17 00:45:59:21 stages in their career. 00:46:00:04 00:46:01:11 So they had to go while they were 00:46:01:12 00:46:03:03 young and be inculcated and then 00:46:03:04 00:46:04:03 move on. 00:46:04:07 00:46:05:07 And all of those on 00:46:06:07 00:46:08:01 one level, like everything is partly 00:46:08:03 00:46:09:13 true, but not entirely true. 00:46:10:01 00:46:11:11 And I think what's going to be 00:46:11:12 00:46:13:10 interesting in the future is really 00:46:13:15 00:46:15:06 to see, firstly, whether this Milton 00:46:15:07 00:46:16:16 Friedman concept of business 00:46:17:03 00:46:18:12 being all about shareholders and 00:46:18:13 00:46:19:24 profit and loss, how that gets 00:46:20:13 00:46:22:03 redefined, because, of course, we 00:46:22:07 00:46:23:18 are now looking at an era of 00:46:23:19 00:46:24:18 stakeholderism. 00:46:25:16 00:46:27:12 How people actually try 00:46:27:13 00:46:28:17 and recognise that business could be 00:46:28:18 00:46:30:10 integrated with other areas of life, 00:46:30:24 00:46:33:02 be that environment, urban planning, 00:46:33:07 00:46:35:10 et cetera, and 00:46:35:11 00:46:36:23 also the degree to which people 00:46:37:00 00:46:38:14 start seeing business schools or 00:46:38:15 00:46:40:14 even the idea of studying business, 00:46:40:21 00:46:42:09 an enterprise as something which 00:46:42:10 00:46:44:00 happens at all stages of life, 00:46:44:10 00:46:46:06 not just as a kind of initiation 00:46:46:17 00:46:48:15 rite into the corporate world. 00:46:49:10 00:46:50:24 And I say, I know that Oxford Said 00:46:51:00 00:46:52:04 is thinking about all of these ideas 00:46:52:05 00:46:53:10 in a very creative way. 00:46:53:11 00:46:55:12 And so I do salute you for that. 00:46:55:23 00:46:57:06 But I think the debate about this is 00:46:57:07 00:46:58:07 only just started. 00:46:58:14 00:47:00:07 And one last point I'd leave you 00:47:00:08 00:47:02:04 with is that if you 00:47:02:05 00:47:03:15 think about what the pandemic 00:47:04:07 00:47:05:21 has done to how we see business, 00:47:06:16 00:47:08:22 the search for the vaccine has 00:47:08:23 00:47:10:21 sparked a scramble 00:47:11:11 00:47:12:23 to not only have public private 00:47:13:14 00:47:15:07 partnership in a way that, frankly, 00:47:15:16 00:47:17:02 went totally out of fashion in 00:47:17:03 00:47:19:08 recent years, but also 00:47:19:12 00:47:20:18 it had company to company 00:47:21:04 00:47:22:12 partnership and collaboration. 00:47:23:09 00:47:25:01 And again, that was something which 00:47:25:02 00:47:26:23 was not dominant as an 00:47:26:24 00:47:27:23 idea in the era of, 00:47:28:21 00:47:30:15 say, Milton Friedman when it was all 00:47:30:16 00:47:32:16 about capitalism being 00:47:32:17 00:47:34:02 red blooded competition or 00:47:34:12 00:47:36:08 competition red in tooth 00:47:36:10 00:47:37:10 and claw, whatever the phrase is. 00:47:37:13 00:47:39:03 But I suspect going forward, we're 00:47:39:04 00:47:41:20 going to see growing expectations 00:47:41:21 00:47:43:17 of public private partnership and 00:47:44:02 00:47:45:18 company wide collaboration, 00:47:46:01 00:47:47:19 particularly cross-company 00:47:47:20 00:47:49:10 collaboration, particularly when 00:47:49:11 00:47:51:01 handling issues like climate change. 00:47:51:24 00:47:53:18 Another very interesting shift that 00:47:53:19 00:47:55:08 I'll be interested to see how 00:47:55:09 00:47:56:24 business schools do or do not echo 00:47:57:03 00:47:58:08 that in their syllabuses. 00:47:58:23 00:47:59:23 Absolutely. 00:47:59:24 00:48:01:11 So thank you for that. 00:48:01:13 00:48:03:11 And I want to use Harriet Schwartz's 00:48:03:12 00:48:05:04 question. Harriet from Bath. 00:48:05:11 00:48:07:02 How would anthropologists go about 00:48:07:03 00:48:08:23 investigating users' experiences 00:48:08:24 00:48:10:17 of online video platforms 00:48:10:22 00:48:12:08 when working from home during the 00:48:12:09 00:48:13:08 pandemic? 00:48:13:21 00:48:14:16 You wrote a chapter in your book 00:48:14:17 00:48:15:23 about this, so Harriet hasn't had a 00:48:15:24 00:48:17:14 chance as I have to read the book, 00:48:17:20 00:48:19:16 but I want to get through in 00:48:19:17 00:48:21:01 our last few minutes three kind of 00:48:21:02 00:48:21:24 topical things. 00:48:22:00 00:48:23:15 One is the pandemic, and there's a 00:48:23:17 00:48:24:18 couple of others that are particularly 00:48:24:19 00:48:26:08 relevant today, May 25th. 00:48:27:02 00:48:28:24 Briefly, anthropologists 00:48:29:00 00:48:30:18 had a real challenge when the world 00:48:30:19 00:48:31:19 went online. 00:48:31:24 00:48:33:24 They started doing their observation 00:48:34:00 00:48:35:09 through video 00:48:35:25 00:48:37:13 calls and video platforms. 00:48:38:05 00:48:40:01 That has disadvantages in 00:48:40:02 00:48:41:03 the sense that it's actually 00:48:41:04 00:48:43:02 directed, not undirected. 00:48:43:03 00:48:44:03 And that's a big problem. 00:48:44:14 00:48:46:06 But it also has advantages because 00:48:46:08 00:48:48:09 not only does it allow them to reach 00:48:48:10 00:48:49:22 a much wider range of people, 00:48:50:05 00:48:51:21 but it also sometimes puts people 00:48:52:03 00:48:53:13 they interview or talk to in 00:48:53:24 00:48:54:24 settings that they feel more 00:48:55:00 00:48:57:12 comfortable with and the interviewee 00:48:57:13 00:48:59:08 feels more empowerment and control 00:48:59:19 00:49:00:19 than otherwise. 00:49:00:22 00:49:02:01 Tiny example, there's an 00:49:02:15 00:49:04:04 anthropologist studying low income 00:49:04:05 00:49:05:25 people in India who had spent a 00:49:05:26 00:49:07:11 lot of time talking to rickshaw 00:49:07:12 00:49:09:10 drivers, had always 00:49:09:11 00:49:10:10 until that point, the rickshaw 00:49:10:14 00:49:12:07 drivers wouldn't meet them anywhere 00:49:12:14 00:49:13:19 other than in the anthropologist's 00:49:13:20 00:49:15:07 office often and put on special 00:49:15:14 00:49:16:21 suits to come and meet them. 00:49:17:10 00:49:19:02 When they went on video platforms 00:49:19:03 00:49:20:10 because the rickshaw drivers, all 00:49:20:11 00:49:22:03 have mobile phones, cell phones. 00:49:22:14 00:49:23:15 They would literally just sit in 00:49:23:16 00:49:25:05 their rickshaws and chat in their 00:49:25:09 00:49:26:15 normal clothes, a normal 00:49:26:16 00:49:28:02 environment, because they felt 00:49:28:14 00:49:30:09 more empowered and they weren't as 00:49:30:10 00:49:32:03 scared of talking to an outsider 00:49:32:23 00:49:34:02 and they often did it in their home. 00:49:34:03 00:49:35:12 So actually, anthropologists got a 00:49:35:13 00:49:37:02 whole bunch more information 00:49:37:13 00:49:39:07 than - about everyday life and a new 00:49:39:08 00:49:40:22 perspective - than they had done 00:49:41:02 00:49:42:16 before. I was talking to to people 00:49:42:17 00:49:44:09 at Google, in fact, just earlier 00:49:44:10 00:49:45:19 this week about what they're 00:49:46:09 00:49:48:07 doing to study misinformation using 00:49:48:08 00:49:49:07 anthropology techniques and 00:49:49:19 00:49:50:25 conspiracy theorists, and 00:49:51:18 00:49:53:02 last year they went or two years 00:49:53:03 00:49:54:06 ago, they went out to places like 00:49:54:07 00:49:55:21 Idaho to meet them face to face 00:49:56:05 00:49:57:18 as anthropologists, to study them. 00:49:58:04 00:49:59:12 Now they're doing it through a video 00:49:59:13 00:50:00:23 platform. And again, they get 00:50:01:09 00:50:03:00 different sets of insights in that 00:50:03:01 00:50:04:00 different formula. 00:50:04:01 00:50:05:21 So you can do it, but it's not easy. 00:50:05:24 00:50:07:20 And certainly the 00:50:08:04 00:50:09:18 anthropology world, like everywhere 00:50:09:19 00:50:11:18 else, is having to change right now 00:50:11:19 00:50:12:18 as a result. 00:50:13:22 00:50:14:24 So we have about eight 00:50:15:23 00:50:16:23 minutes left. 00:50:17:03 00:50:18:07 I'm going to break the rule to my 00:50:18:08 00:50:19:10 producers told me, 00:50:20:03 00:50:21:22 we're told to never mention the time 00:50:21:23 00:50:23:12 of day or even the day of week or 00:50:23:14 00:50:24:12 the date. 00:50:24:13 00:50:26:05 But today is May twenty fifth and 00:50:26:06 00:50:27:23 two things happened, one a year ago 00:50:28:02 00:50:29:13 today and the other thing happening 00:50:29:14 00:50:30:11 today. 00:50:30:12 00:50:32:02 A year ago, is the killing of George 00:50:32:03 00:50:34:00 Floyd. And obviously, that's way 00:50:34:01 00:50:35:24 too big a topic for us to deal here. 00:50:36:08 00:50:37:18 However, Guillermo's question 00:50:38:08 00:50:40:02 from Colombia, I think speaks a 00:50:40:03 00:50:41:02 little bit to this. 00:50:41:09 00:50:43:01 The motivations of companies for 00:50:43:04 00:50:44:16 diversity and inclusion usually 00:50:44:19 00:50:46:09 comes from economic or marketing 00:50:46:10 00:50:47:09 regulations. 00:50:48:02 00:50:49:16 What's your opinion of this from 00:50:49:23 00:50:51:07 an anthropological lens? 00:50:52:04 00:50:53:21 Very fair point that there's a lot 00:50:53:22 00:50:54:23 of box ticking going on. 00:50:55:21 00:50:57:02 There's a lot of corporate 00:50:57:03 00:50:58:10 executives going, yikes, we gotta do 00:50:58:11 00:50:59:18 something. And there's an awful lot 00:50:59:19 00:51:02:04 of hypocrisy, greenwashing, 00:51:02:05 00:51:04:12 what I call woke washing, reputation 00:51:04:15 00:51:06:03 washing, et cetera, et cetera. 00:51:06:13 00:51:08:00 And one of the things that we have 00:51:08:01 00:51:09:01 to do at Moral Money. I should 00:51:09:04 00:51:10:09 explain that Moral Money was a platform 00:51:10:10 00:51:12:04 I created two years ago 00:51:12:05 00:51:13:15 because I could see this area of 00:51:13:16 00:51:15:04 social silence in the sense that 00:51:15:05 00:51:16:18 there wasn't a lot of mainstream 00:51:16:19 00:51:18:21 media coverage of sustainability 00:51:19:13 00:51:20:13 and I thought there should be. 00:51:20:18 00:51:22:17 And Moral Money calls out, 00:51:22:23 00:51:24:16 a lot of woke washing and 00:51:24:21 00:51:25:21 greenwashing because it's out there for sure. 00:51:26:06 00:51:27:11 However, we try and call 00:51:28:07 00:51:29:16 it out in a I wouldn't say a 00:51:30:02 00:51:31:21 forgiving way, but a kind way, 00:51:31:22 00:51:33:13 sometimes a whimsical way, because 00:51:33:21 00:51:35:11 the very fact that companies 00:51:35:20 00:51:37:04 feel the need to even engage 00:51:38:00 00:51:39:00 in box ticking or 00:51:40:04 00:51:41:05 woke washing is itself quite 00:51:41:06 00:51:43:07 remarkable because it reflects 00:51:43:08 00:51:45:04 the way the Zeitgeist overall has 00:51:45:05 00:51:46:05 changed. 00:51:46:16 00:51:47:13 Again, one of the things 00:51:47:14 00:51:49:03 anthropology stresses is that you 00:51:49:08 00:51:51:03 need to look at the entire Zeitgeist 00:51:52:02 00:51:53:23 and the definition of what is 00:51:53:24 00:51:55:22 acceptable discourse and see 00:51:55:23 00:51:57:13 how that changes over time 00:51:58:01 00:51:59:17 and to look at the what 00:52:00:06 00:52:01:06 Pierre Bourdieu the French anthropologist 00:52:01:10 00:52:03:04 called the doxa, it's really 00:52:03:05 00:52:04:01 important to think about that. 00:52:04:02 00:52:05:15 And the doxa - the framework for 00:52:05:24 00:52:07:13 reference - has really changed in 00:52:07:14 00:52:08:13 recent years. 00:52:08:19 00:52:10:12 And companies now know that if they 00:52:10:16 00:52:11:18 don't actually embrace 00:52:12:19 00:52:14:04 that new doxa, they will suffer. 00:52:14:21 00:52:16:16 And it's funny how 00:52:16:17 00:52:18:19 language and group 00:52:18:20 00:52:20:24 patterns and rituals 00:52:21:00 00:52:22:23 and behaviour and thinking can all 00:52:22:24 00:52:24:11 intersect and reinforce each other. 00:52:25:01 00:52:26:21 Because the reality is that 00:52:27:06 00:52:28:22 even if something like 00:52:29:08 00:52:30:19 talking about environmental 00:52:31:08 00:52:32:20 issues starts off with a box ticking 00:52:33:08 00:52:35:05 exercise that is full 00:52:35:06 00:52:37:17 of self-deception or hypocrisy, 00:52:38:09 00:52:40:15 if that language changes over time, 00:52:41:06 00:52:42:17 little by little ideas of 00:52:43:02 00:52:44:21 what acceptable practise shift to 00:52:45:03 00:52:46:22 and then practise changes as well 00:52:47:15 00:52:48:16 in a very subtle way. 00:52:49:01 00:52:50:21 And so, yes, 00:52:51:04 00:52:52:09 reputation washing is there. 00:52:53:01 00:52:54:25 Yes, some of it is hypocritical. 00:52:55:01 00:52:56:16 Yes. It should be called out, but 00:52:57:00 00:52:58:12 don't necessarily discount it 00:52:58:13 00:52:59:20 because actually that's having an 00:52:59:21 00:53:00:20 impact as well. 00:53:01:19 00:53:03:03 I guess this is the old fake it 00:53:03:04 00:53:04:14 until you are it concept. 00:53:06:02 00:53:07:02 Ritual matter. 00:53:07:08 00:53:09:02 Anthropologists don't - take rituals 00:53:09:08 00:53:10:08 very seriously. 00:53:10:11 00:53:11:08 Absolutely. 00:53:11:09 00:53:12:12 Well, there's a ritual happening 00:53:12:13 00:53:14:08 today on May 25th, which is 00:53:14:09 00:53:16:03 a corporate vote at Exxon Mobil. 00:53:17:10 00:53:18:15 And, you know, in your book, you 00:53:18:16 00:53:19:20 profile Bernard Luti 00:53:20:15 00:53:21:20 and you also talk about - you 00:53:21:21 00:53:22:22 profiled him in Moral Money 00:53:23:03 00:53:24:12 recently. But this 00:53:25:10 00:53:26:21 maybe we're going from the book to 00:53:26:22 00:53:28:05 what's going on right now. 00:53:28:12 00:53:29:12 So this landmark 00:53:30:10 00:53:31:13 activist move to unseat 00:53:32:12 00:53:34:18 some of the directors of Exxon Mobil 00:53:34:25 00:53:35:25 is part of the the 00:53:36:23 00:53:38:16 tale that Moral Money is telling. 00:53:38:24 00:53:40:06 So we don't know what's going to 00:53:40:07 00:53:42:02 happen with this this 00:53:42:05 00:53:43:17 vote. And maybe it doesn't matter. 00:53:43:20 00:53:45:07 I also note that it's down to three 00:53:45:08 00:53:46:11 index fund providers. 00:53:46:12 00:53:47:25 I think you have noted that in your 00:53:48:06 00:53:49:20 story, Vanguard, BlackRock, State 00:53:49:21 00:53:51:13 Street will probably determine what 00:53:51:16 00:53:52:19 happens. So 00:53:53:12 00:53:55:09 both with your Financial Times 00:53:55:16 00:53:56:17 hat on and your Anthro Vision hat 00:53:56:18 00:53:58:08 on, help 00:53:59:00 00:54:00:17 readers, help listeners understand 00:54:01:07 00:54:02:18 what they should be looking for when 00:54:02:19 00:54:04:08 they see the news that comes out of 00:54:04:09 00:54:06:07 Exxon Mobil's shareholder 00:54:06:08 00:54:07:06 vote later today. 00:54:07:07 00:54:08:17 And more generally, what you're 00:54:08:18 00:54:10:13 seeing in the oil and gas sector. 00:54:11:20 00:54:12:17 That's such a great question, 00:54:12:18 00:54:14:14 because I say if there was ever a 00:54:15:03 00:54:16:14 tale that indicates why corporate 00:54:16:15 00:54:17:20 CEOs need an anthropology 00:54:18:07 00:54:19:22 perspective, it is indeed Exxon, 00:54:20:09 00:54:22:02 because I know I've known some of 00:54:22:03 00:54:23:02 the senior leaders there for a bit and for 00:54:23:22 00:54:24:24 so many years 00:54:25:25 00:54:27:13 they knew that there were these 00:54:27:14 00:54:29:14 hippie weirdo activists in their 00:54:29:15 00:54:31:15 eyes who were campaigning over 00:54:31:16 00:54:33:11 climate change issues and 00:54:33:23 00:54:35:08 they just discounted them. 00:54:35:16 00:54:37:09 And it never occurred to them to try 00:54:37:10 00:54:38:20 and see the world through their eyes 00:54:39:03 00:54:40:19 or to actually even take them that 00:54:40:20 00:54:41:19 seriously. 00:54:42:11 00:54:44:05 Now, that's true of most oil and gas 00:54:44:10 00:54:45:07 companies. 00:54:45:08 00:54:46:11 It's true of most CEOs. 00:54:46:13 00:54:47:14 I mean, it goes about the issue 00:54:47:15 00:54:49:00 about being cloistered in one's 00:54:49:10 00:54:51:06 corporate office or basically being 00:54:51:07 00:54:52:19 too busy to break out of tunnel 00:54:52:21 00:54:53:21 vision. 00:54:54:11 00:54:56:12 Some have tried, I mean, I actually 00:54:56:13 00:54:58:03 give a hat tip to Bernard Looney at 00:54:58:04 00:54:59:03 BP, who 00:54:59:24 00:55:01:14 a few years ago did try to go out 00:55:01:23 00:55:03:18 and spend time listening to 00:55:03:19 00:55:04:25 activists who were staging 00:55:05:22 00:55:07:19 protests on the BP headquarters 00:55:08:00 00:55:09:05 and just trying to listen to them 00:55:09:14 00:55:11:01 with open mind to hear what they had 00:55:11:02 00:55:12:16 to say and try and see the world 00:55:12:19 00:55:13:19 through their eyes. 00:55:14:04 00:55:15:08 He didn't agree with all of it, 00:55:16:02 00:55:17:11 certainly Bernard's made plenty of 00:55:17:12 00:55:19:01 mistakes over time, and it was easy 00:55:19:02 00:55:20:09 for him to do that because he came 00:55:20:10 00:55:21:16 in fresh into the company. 00:55:21:24 00:55:23:11 So I'm not holding him up as a 00:55:23:12 00:55:25:01 paragon of listening, per se, but 00:55:25:11 00:55:26:22 he certainly took a different stance 00:55:27:09 00:55:28:15 from many other oil and gas 00:55:28:16 00:55:29:24 companies, including the Exxon 00:55:30:00 00:55:30:24 leadership. 00:55:31:19 00:55:33:12 And the reality is that 00:55:33:17 00:55:35:11 the Exxon leadership now is suddenly 00:55:35:16 00:55:36:21 waking up realising that, 00:55:37:13 00:55:39:11 two things. Firstly, that 00:55:39:12 00:55:40:21 they're not in a great position to 00:55:40:22 00:55:42:12 understand the climate activists or 00:55:42:13 00:55:43:22 engage with them or win much 00:55:43:23 00:55:44:22 credibility from them. 00:55:45:19 00:55:47:11 And secondly, because they haven't 00:55:47:22 00:55:49:01 been looking closely at what's been 00:55:49:02 00:55:50:02 happening on the ground, they hadn't 00:55:50:03 00:55:51:16 realised the degree to which the 00:55:51:21 00:55:53:10 climate activists are essentially 00:55:53:17 00:55:55:01 teaming up with other types of 00:55:55:02 00:55:56:18 activists, which are more mainstream 00:55:57:09 00:55:59:03 financiers and have more clout. 00:55:59:14 00:56:00:24 And that's really what's going on. 00:56:01:11 00:56:03:05 It pays to listen and it pays to see 00:56:03:08 00:56:04:22 the world through someone else's 00:56:04:24 00:56:06:23 eyes, even if 00:56:06:24 00:56:08:08 you seem to be extraordinarily 00:56:08:09 00:56:09:08 powerful. 00:56:09:17 00:56:11:15 So in closing, let me do somebody 00:56:11:16 00:56:12:20 else's eyes for a moment. 00:56:13:11 00:56:15:01 In another environment, Gillian, I 00:56:15:02 00:56:16:20 would - I'm stepping down as Dean in 00:56:16:23 00:56:18:02 a few weeks, and I would have 00:56:18:03 00:56:19:17 invited you to come speak to our 00:56:19:18 00:56:21:04 students maybe at the end of their 00:56:21:05 00:56:22:02 programme. 00:56:22:03 00:56:24:00 So have we had that luxury 00:56:24:22 00:56:26:03 and you would be giving them their 00:56:26:04 00:56:27:19 advice about what they should do, 00:56:27:22 00:56:29:03 maybe what they should draw from 00:56:29:04 00:56:30:14 Anthro Vision or whatever else. 00:56:31:07 00:56:32:20 What's your valedictory remarks 00:56:33:05 00:56:34:23 to them? What advice would you give 00:56:35:04 00:56:36:04 these young people? 00:56:36:13 00:56:37:16 Well, two basics. 00:56:37:17 00:56:39:20 Firstly, embrace the anthropologist 00:56:39:21 00:56:41:17 mindset of trying 00:56:41:18 00:56:43:15 to immerse yourself periodically 00:56:43:16 00:56:45:12 in the mindset of someone who 00:56:45:13 00:56:47:04 seems different from you, not just 00:56:47:10 00:56:49:01 to gain empathy for somebody else, 00:56:49:02 00:56:50:17 which you need in a globalised 00:56:50:18 00:56:52:13 world, but also to look 00:56:52:14 00:56:54:07 back at yourself more critically and 00:56:54:08 00:56:55:10 see your own blind spots. 00:56:55:11 00:56:56:18 I can't stress how important that 00:56:56:19 00:56:57:14 is. 00:56:57:15 00:56:58:23 And then from a perspective 00:56:59:13 00:57:00:13 of someone who has nothing to do 00:57:00:14 00:57:02:03 with anthropology, per se, but it is 00:57:02:04 00:57:03:15 kind of interlinked, recognise 00:57:04:11 00:57:06:02 that the 20th century idea about 00:57:06:03 00:57:07:07 career ladders is out of 00:57:07:24 00:57:08:20 date. 00:57:08:21 00:57:10:21 Today, to quote Sheryl Sandberg, 00:57:10:25 00:57:12:13 it's more like a jungle gym. 00:57:13:07 00:57:15:11 In my own career, I've gone up, down 00:57:15:12 00:57:16:20 with sideways, swung around the 00:57:16:21 00:57:18:16 edges and then come back and then 00:57:18:17 00:57:19:16 tried to bounce back. 00:57:20:19 00:57:22:12 And that's the way that most careers 00:57:22:13 00:57:23:12 are today. 00:57:23:14 00:57:25:10 And that can seem quite 00:57:25:11 00:57:26:24 scary at times, but it's also very 00:57:27:00 00:57:27:24 exciting. 00:57:28:00 00:57:29:03 It's also why we have to 00:57:29:20 00:57:31:25 keep an open mind and stay curious 00:57:32:07 00:57:33:22 and always remain ready to listen 00:57:34:07 00:57:35:23 to others and realise that the way 00:57:36:01 00:57:37:17 that you see the world may not be 00:57:37:18 00:57:39:09 the only or even the most effective 00:57:39:10 00:57:40:05 way. 00:57:40:06 00:57:41:16 What an incredible gift to my 00:57:41:19 00:57:43:04 students. Thank you so much for 00:57:43:05 00:57:45:06 giving me the privilege of reading 00:57:45:07 00:57:46:16 your book, great book, 00:57:47:07 00:57:49:01 before it comes out on June 8th 00:57:49:08 00:57:50:24 and for spending this hour with me 00:57:51:00 00:57:52:13 and with all of our listeners 00:57:52:21 00:57:54:13 and for holding up a mirror to the 00:57:54:15 00:57:55:24 world through which your reporting 00:57:56:00 00:57:57:04 and your writing helps us better 00:57:57:05 00:57:58:07 understand ourselves. 00:57:58:13 00:58:00:07 So for that gift, Gillian, thank you 00:58:00:12 00:58:01:12 so very much. 00:58:01:17 00:58:02:24 Thank you very much indeed. 00:58:03:00 00:58:03:24 I really appreciate you taking the 00:58:04:00 00:58:05:07 time to talk about it. And good luck 00:58:05:16 00:58:07:12 as you look at business schools 00:58:07:13 00:58:08:17 and work out the path forward. 00:58:08:18 00:58:09:17 So thank you. 00:58:15:21 00:58:17:21 My thanks again to Dr. Gillian Tett. 00:58:18:06 00:58:19:15 My name is Peter Tufano, and 00:58:20:01 00:58:21:09 you've been listening to Leadership 00:58:21:10 00:58:23:03 in Extraordinary Times, a 00:58:23:05 00:58:24:25 podcast from Oxford University's 00:58:25:02 00:58:26:04 Said Business School. 00:58:26:19 00:58:28:05 If you've enjoyed this episode, 00:58:28:06 00:58:29:18 please do give us a rating and 00:58:29:19 00:58:31:16 review and subscribe to future 00:58:31:17 00:58:33:03 episodes wherever you get your 00:58:33:04 00:58:34:03 podcasts. 00:58:34:25 00:58:36:14 Make sure you join us for the next 00:58:36:15 00:58:38:15 episode, which promises to be a high 00:58:38:16 00:58:39:24 octane discussion featuring 00:58:40:12 00:58:42:05 the boss of the Mercedes Formula One 00:58:42:06 00:58:44:02 team and the CEO of Patronus, 00:58:44:03 00:58:45:15 the petrochemical firm that backs 00:58:45:16 00:58:46:11 them. 00:58:46:12 00:58:47:22 If you'd like more information about 00:58:47:23 00:58:49:14 this episode and the Leadership in 00:58:49:20 00:58:51:21 Extraordinary Times series, please 00:58:51:22 00:58:52:21 visit OxfordAnswers.org. 00:58:54:19 00:58:56:02 Until next time, thanks for 00:58:56:13 00:58:56:23 listening.